Major toy companies like Spin Master, Mattel, and Hasbro have all been expanding their influence beyond traditional toys for many years. Spin Master, in particualr, is known for launching popular entertainment properties like PAW Patrol and Bakugan, which have seamlessly transitioned into digital formats in the form of TV series, movies, and video games. Spin Master has also been unafraid to acquire properties when it sees a strategic opportunity, such as its 2016 acquisition of Toca Boca, the children's mobile app developer.

Today, host David Taylor sits down with Yves Saada, the Head of Strategic Partnerships at Spin Master, to better understand its place at the intersection of toys, video games, and entertainment more broadly. We cover Spin Master’s success in mobile games, as well as Roblox, and how that fits into Spin Master’s broader strategy as a toy company. 

We’d also like to thank Lightspeed Venture Partners for making this episode possible! With its dedicated gaming practice, "Lightspeed Gaming," the firm is investing from over $7B in early- and growth-stage capital — the by far largest fund focused on gaming and interactive technology. If you’re interested in learning more, go to https://gaming.lsvp.com/.

This transcript is machine-generated, and we apologize for any errors.

David: Welcome to the Naavik Gaming Podcast. I'm your host, David Taylor. And today we're diving into the fascinating intersection of toy companies and video games. As we saw with the overnight hit Monopoly Go generating 2 billion in revenue in just 10 months.

Players are eager to engage with beloved toy IP. Major toy companies like Spin Master, Mattel, and Hasbro have been expanding their influence beyond traditional toys for many years now. Spin Master, who we'll be discussing today, is known for launching popular entertainment properties like Paw Patrol and Bakugan, which have seamlessly transitioned into digital formats in the form of TV series, movies, and of course, video games.

Spin Master has also not been afraid to acquire properties when it sees a strategic opportunity and a good fit for the Spin Master brand, as was the case with its acquisition of Tokaboka, the children's mobile app developer in 2016. I was interested in learning more about what Spin Master stands for, how it thinks about cultivating new versus existing IP and its approach at the intersection of toys, video games, and entertainment broadly.

So today I'm excited to welcome Yves Saada to the head of strategic partnership at Spin Master to the podcast. Yves, welcome.

Yves: Hey, David, thank you for having me. And I'm very excited to be with you today. Just to, to be clear on what I'm focusing here at Spin Master I'm leading the partnership team.

And we're, I would say we're mostly working on three dimensions in terms of collaboration. One is around a partnership with a tech and gaming company. Second is really about content collaboration. And the third is really about roadblocks, collaboration, and development. So that's what yeah, me and my team are working on.

And then just to give you a little bit of personal background so previously I worked at Pokemon and I worked there on developing digital media and educational experiences globally. Which was really interesting in terms of brand management and also the connection of digital games at a very large scale and brand that, that basically become a full consumer brand starting from games and TV shows.

And then I spent eight years at Disney before Spin Master where I manage a mobile team in the consumer product division and where my team develop is a clear games for all the, across all the Disney brands from princess to Star Wars to Marvel. And I will say, through these jobs, I really developed a lot of like skill set in terms of developing products and developing some marketing towards families and kids. So that's how the path to spin master came organically.

David: That's awesome. And so it sounds like you have a ton of experience developing and working with some of the biggest IPs in the world both.

In mobile games as well as, broader entertainment. Zooming out a bit and before we get into sort of the details, I was just wondering if you could give the audience a lay of the land of what Spin Master does, it seems to have its hands in a lot of pots. So just help us understand the different parts of the business.

Yves: Sure. At Spin Master, we are what we call like free creative centers. So in fact, 30 this year the company is 30 years old and we started uh, Thank you. We we started with a toy business and then in 2008, I believe we started an entertainment business with Bakugan and then later on with Paw Patrol in terms of TV series with global distribution.

And then as you mentioned, 2016 was the beginning of our digital games group for the acquisition of Tokabuka and Sega Mini and then we We continue developing that the digital games with a combination of like organic development and more studio acquisitions.

David: Got it. And do you have a perspective on just how those three pillars intersect with one another?

Obviously there's cross marketing, but, is there a, is there?

Yves: I think what's really interesting today is that each dimension is adding, in fact, new layers to brands. So for example, if you take something like Paw Patrol. It's, it started as a show and you have very successful timeline.

And for example, last fall, we launched an app called Paw Patrol Academy, which is an educational app. And, it was a really new dimension for, for Paw Patrol which was mostly, around entertainment in terms of experiences. And so I think what's interesting is that when you start adding each creative center, you can add, more texture and strength to, to our core brands.

Rubik's Cube is another example where we acquired the brand of Rubik's And in a few months, we're launching an app called Rubik's Match. And so same thing, this is, this will be a casual game. In fact, this year is the 50th anniversary of Rubik's Cube, which is Also a big deal and we developed pretty a casual game for all ages.

It's not just like for kids it's really anyone in the family can, will be able to play that game. We're trying to add basically new dimensions that you didn't necessarily have through either entertainment or through toys.

David: And so that's interesting. I didn't realize Paw Patrol was a TV series first.

And so I guess my question would be around. Does, how does spin master identify? Do they think of themselves as a toy company first? And then there's these sort of adjacencies or is it whatever opportunities come up that are around entertaining kids? That's what spread and butter is.

Yves: I would say it's both meaning that you have definitely work in each division developing their own IPs and their own product, but at the same time, there is always that notion of can this exist, as entertainment, can this exist as a digital game and vice versa? We, we look all the time at new ideas for games.

And sometimes we're freaking, Hey, can this game, could this game, have also an existence in terms of consumer product? So this is something where we don't see necessarily delineation. These are three very different industries, but at the same time, the teams are collaborating a lot.

So for example, I'll take another example coming from digital. With a brand sego mini our entertainment team created a TV series on Apple plus. So again, like we, we took that game, but just existed in the app stores and we brought it to, to give it a life in a linear format.

David: Got it. Is there any, so where would you draw the line?

Is it anything that is entertaining for kids is, in, in the realm of possibility?

Yves: I think it's not just kids. Yeah, I would say the core of our products are definitely mostly for kids, but I would say it's kids and families typically. And then some products are really for all ages.

We could, we call that kids of all ages. So for example, Rubik's cube is a perfect example where. I am sure that you will enjoy playing with some of our products from the Rubik's Cube product line. A six year old also will love to start, solving one level of Rubik's Cube. And then again in a few months, we'll have some, more like mobile casual gamers who might be a little bit afraid by, solving the three by three cube, but they will be, comfortable with playing with with that casual game with that match fruit.

David: That makes sense. I'm personally more of an action figures guy. I was never smart enough to really figure out how to solve a Rubik's cube. But I understand that there are many smart people, many smart kids in this world who very much enjoy a Rubik's cube. So I want to hop into gaming a little bit at this point.

And I just want to sort of understand, coming from the gaming space, how do you think about gaming and what's your approach in terms of identifying. Opportunities in gaming in relation to the broader company.

Yves: Yeah. The first thing was really like to we look at gaming as again, that third force, that first create for creative centers, but at the same time, in terms of goals, it's really important for us to look at gaming as a huge source of growth.

Basically, the goals is that to have gaming representing about 20 percent of over the revenue of a company. So it shows you what's, this is going to become pretty substantial overall as our business. And then the way we look at it is I think really studios, owning studios where we do our development.

So we have five studios right now inside digital games. So we have three studios in Sweden and two studios in North America. And so what we're trying to do is really developing products with different angles. So you have Tokabuka that has already this brand. Segomenin in Canada that already, I don't know, so it's on brand, but developing new experiences.

But then we wanted to really create original. Titles based on our IP. So we have a studio called Nord Lights in Sweden, who's developing Battery Big Smash title I mentioned earlier. So that's really trying, to find like different angles. We have another studio who's developing a Unicorn Academy game.

So all of that is really like how we're restructuring gaming. And then it's also looking at, we look also A different platform. So obviously Roblox is a platform that came in the equation in terms of more for now as a marketing platform and an engagement platform. That's really the main way today where we're using Roblox and we're partnering Roblox.

And then for now we've been focusing mostly on mobile development because we find that like the Monetization in terms of in app purchase subscription is a model that's working really well.

David: Got it. I think you just did a great job of summarizing everything we're about to cover in the next 30 to 45 minutes.

And so I think we should just go through everything you just named, maybe one by one, starting with the acquisition of Tokaboka. I would love to just understand, and I understanding that you've, been, that's been master, probably not for the entire time that took a book but, based on your understanding of the company and how they cultivate IP, like maybe in the context of that, how do you see them?

Identifying and then cultivating and growing. Cause that did grow significantly from the time that it came into spin master.

Yves: Yeah, absolutely. We're close to on average close to 60 million monthly active use, monthly active users on Toka Boka world. So it's definitely like one of our, it's a huge success.

And like you said, it was much smaller when it was a crime in 16. I will say that Toka Boka has a lot of innovation in its DNA. And it's been also a lot of values from, for Speedmaster. When you talk to a lot of people in the industry and the, one of the first word that comes about Speedmaster is innovation.

And so there was really like, like very similar values. I think also that it was a great fit in terms of, in that time, in terms of fitting really well with Gen Alpha in terms of self expression, creativity. Versus many of the games that we're not as open play. And I think in general, like we like open play and products that really enable kids to be creative with a product.

And so that's when you look at Toca Boca and even same thing with Sega Mini, these are very like open play studio, products in terms of experience.

David: Got it. Makes sense. And I also saw that you guys launched a new Toka Boka game as well. Curious, how does that factor into your strategy?

Yves: Yeah, at the same time, one thing really interesting with Toka Boka the company started in 2010. And players are getting older. And in fact, when you look at a product like Toka Boka World the core demographic is this about six to 14. And so we're saying basically, the players aging up.

So at the same time we do a lot of research. We really spend a lot of time with players and asking what they enjoy, what they like. And we see that the notion of a multiplayer game, also the notion of 3D was something really important for other players. And so we developed Tokabuka Days which was announced recently.

And that's launching a later this fall which is really multiplayer 3d. It's all about creativity and self expression, but I will say again, like for kind of older kids, more like for tween and teens they will really connect with that experience

David: And is that aging up does that also crossover beyond games to entertainment as well?

Or are you, is the company trying to age up with its initial core audience? Or how does, is that just unique to gaming?

Yves: I think gaming in general is more what we call, I don't know if you've heard the term, like less elasticity for brands, meaning like if you take an IP typically and you bring it inside a digital game, it will tend to have a wider age range up and down compared to if you take it as a toy or if you take it a TV show.

Okay. So digital games typically has this kind of elasticity. But it brings to brand.

David: Got it. So the idea being if you design a game that has game mechanics targeted towards an older audience, the fact that it's a younger brand will be overlooked as long as the game is fun.

Yves: Yeah, exactly. Absolutely. Yeah, that makes sense.

David: And then you mentioned the sort of your, the way that you've structured your studios. I'd love to just dig in deeper here. So you acquired Nord Light Games, I think, in 2022. In order to build a Rubik's cube game. I'm curious, just like, how do you think about whether to work for hire as a common practice in the gaming industry, do you do any work for hire?

How do you think about work for hire versus bringing studios in house?

Yves: I think, yeah, it really depends of the depth level and how much is going to be involved with the brands, but for example, on Rubik's, because we knew it would be. A long and pretty, very involved project with our brand team.

We really wanted the, that game to reflect a lot of what Rubik's has its in DNA, and it's really hard to do that with an outsourcing studio, which usually is, is As a different business model, meaning that, they're paid by the hour or, they want to look at a certain amount of time.

So we wanted like a full dedication and that you only get it through, studios that. That are in a house. But at the same time, what's interesting with that team is that it's a team that has a lot of experience with match free games and casual gaming. And so that was also like the choice was to pick up a team that had the right skillset and that knew would come like a, you know what I called earlier, but is like kids of all ages darted.

David: Yeah. That all makes sense. And I think the counter, the counterpoint would be that when you acquire a studio, you're it's like a marriage you're committed. And so how, what was your approach or how did you know that this was a, a studio that you wanted to work with for the longterm versus, trying it out and seeing how it went.

Yves: It, they were but teams met, the team is also based in Stockholm where we have to cover costs. We had a lot of time spent together and really having, people, evaluating that potential longer collaboration and it, it really worked and it became like very obvious with their team being very excited to work on something like Rubik's, but also potentially other brands in the future.

We have dozens of brands on the portfolio. So that's, what's exciting, from a game developer perspective, We have an embarrassment of reaches here. Got it. What I was about to say is, the pennant of that back to your question is, when we look at outsourcing, it tends to be like, shorter period of time, more burst of work, and it's Roblox, for example, because we've done integrations mostly, or we've done collaboration with some game studios and so this is typically, a few months to a year partnership.

And so that's what that model in that case really worked well for us also because it was a new platform. And so it, it felt also a good way for us to learn. Obviously Roblox is a very different platform in terms of development compared To mobile. . And so we just wanted to make sure that but that was a good way for us to enter that new territory.

David: Yeah, that makes sense. I just so the audience can better understand that, what would, what have you experiences the key differences between mobile and Roblox? Yeah.

Yves: I would say mobile, as has a very clear monetization model. You have a very curated app stores and although it's also challenging to have when we talk about discovery to, to have your game discovered in either Apple, Google, or Amazon stores.

These are much more mature business in terms of discoverability and marketing versus Roblox is still like relatively new, at least in terms of how you can find a game and what the games experiences are. So it tends to be a bit simpler. Also, we find that we've Roblox because it's its own ecosystem and that also it's very, so it's all multiplayer.

Like I said, most of our apps have been a single player until then So it was also, you know looking at it in a completely different manner For now, so I would say that roblox monetization is not obvious. Not so many game studios are you know are able to recoup their investment or even, really make money from Their game.

So yeah, I think it's for now. We're looking at that with a different lens You that's why I was saying earlier, we see Roblox more as a marketing and engagement platform. We see the path to monetization, but it's definitely going to take a few years to get there.

David: Okay. I want to ask you more questions about Roblox, but before we, we get into that, I feel like one of the things that is, A key differentiator about the games that you're making is that these are IP driven games and I'm curious have you seen like when you talk about acquisition is The fact that it's a tokoboka game Does that come with a guaranteed audience or do you are you still finding that you need to?

You know spend in order to get the game in front of people What's sort of the benefit of the IP in the game from a game's perspective?

Yves: Yeah, it's interesting you're asking about that for example for tokoboka because You It is already so successful and we're getting a lot of support or so from the app store on a regular basis because we have a very active live operations schedule.

David: For like the new game, the new game, for example.

Yves: Yeah. So we have a new game, again, like there will be that branding existing. And we know that a lot of new players, current players will want to get into the new game, but at the same time. There is a way to have a much more curated experience and marketing.

Versus on, I would say on Roblox because you're against multiple games. In fact, when you look at data on for players on Roblox, they tend to go to much more games in a day, in a single day or in a week versus the app store where I think players are much more I would say loyal to fewer games.

David: Got it. That makes sense. All right. So let's chat a little bit about Roblox. I I'm curious just when you look at the platform and you set your goals, what are the goals that you're really looking for on Roblox?

Yves: So we leave it, we like the engagement that you can get on Roblox. It, we, it's something that we, basically we started working on Roblox about three and a half years ago now.

We saw the growth, post COVID of audience. And we really felt that we wanted to to connect and to work on that platform. At the same time, we were really looking for the right way to do it. And in fact, the first thing I did was really, in fact, meeting with a partnership team at Roblox and sitting down and really trying to learn.

And I sat down with a lot of Developers or so to really Understand how they worked and how their audience was responding. And and then, it was also about finding the right timing. So one thing that we decided to do to when starting was video, so to bring a bit of entertainment inside Roblox in fact, our first activation on Roblox was basically bringing a TV series from Bakugan.

But we took, basically, we asked our partner, Netflix if we could premiere some new episodes of Bakugan on Roblox first. So it was something new for Roblox, for Netflix, but everyone was willing to test. And we created an experience around that with some games and and video streaming, basically of his anime episodes.

And, we saw really a huge success. And so for us, if that was really an interesting way to, to look at it in terms of really tackling that audience, that global audience or so, we see, for example, for anime content, you have a global audience that's very interested in that type of of content.

So it was a good way for us to test completely new things on a new platform.

David: So in just, you said it was a massive success, what are the metrics you're looking at that, that tell you that it's successful?

Yves: Yeah. So I think obviously we're looking at, the like a million of gaming sessions,

Attached to the experience where, what you have what we're looking at also is we have very we have a really good set of analytics.

Where we're able to also look at what's happening at retail. And so we're able to, we're able to see really an impact at retail. And so this was really important for us to see that, toys associated with that brand were. Doing very well at retail. So there was a real impact in terms of awareness of a brand and demand for a brand.

Got it. So we say, but for us I was again, like you were asking earlier about our KPIs. Yeah. It's really awareness and sales are really what we're looking at.

David: Got it. And then in terms of success a typical marketing endeavor, you might look for. If we're talking about digital marketing, you'd look for sort of a customer acquisition cost that's below, your margin on toy sales.

I'm curious. Is that the same approach that you're taking here? Or is it more of a brand building exercise where it's the 50 percent of my marketing is ineffective. I just don't know which half.

Yves: No, I think it, what happened also is that we had if you look at about five years ago, you had a sharp decline of kids watching TV.

Okay. And so when we think about, where do we put our marketing dollars or so that was a factor because kids are, spending a lot more time today, we, it's two and a half hours. On average a day on Roblox. And so that was also, one of the factors that's really seeing that level of engagement.

And we were able to instead of just counting in impressions, counting in engagement. And we value that much more, when the kid is spending time with your characters, with your stories. It's a real connection. It's not just an ad, flying on a mobile phone or on TV. And so that's also like one of the things that made us stick to Roblox because we saw uh, that level of engagement, very loud, you know, tens of millions of players.

And then yes, result at retail in conjunction with his investments.

David: So I guess the question I'm in, if this is too, if I'm prying too much, let me know, I'm just wondering, like when you've advertised on Roblox and I know you've had a number of activations, which I want to break down in a sec, would you say that in the case of this Bakugan activation that you derived more value than you spent on the activation itself?

Yves: We did it a few times, so I think if we did it a few times, it means that it was successful.

David: Got it. That's your answer. I think, it's a, I think it's a question that a lot of our audience who are, brand managers and who are familiar with Roblox are curious about is, yes, you can have a huge audience on Roblox, but does that convert into customers, regardless of what you're selling, whether it be entertainment IP or cars, for example.

Yves: Yeah. And, but I think, not every brand is equal and I think it's also the affinity between the platform, the type of players and your brands, not every band will be successful on Roblox.

David: Yeah.

Yves: I think there are some, for example,

You shouldn't put a preschool brand on Roblox because you don't really have players under six, so there are things like that, but also you have to take into account and then, there are some.

I think there are some story based brands or some characters that would be less of a fit in that framework of, in, in the framework of Roblox, yeah.

David: For a second, I thought you were going to call out a couple of brands specifically that Less than

Yves: No, I think everyone is testing, I don't think everyone has a magical formula. So I respect everyone was testing.

David: You described your most successful activation. I'm curious.

Yves: It's not our most successful activation.

David: Okay. You just, you described your first activation. Could you describe?

Yves: Exactly. That was our first activation.

David: Could you describe if you're able, a couple more activations, maybe give us the spectrum of what's worked and what hasn't?

Yves: I'm not sure I'm going to talk about what didn't work, but I'll talk about another one that, that was great for us because we did different. And last fall we were, we are a co producer with Netflix of a TV, of a series called Unicorn Academy. And so we launch, that show was scheduled to be launched on Netflix in November.

And so based on, some of his experiences earlier with Bakugan, we suggested a, we worked on a plan with Netflix to really, Um, launch that content first on

David: Roblox,

Yves: Before Netflix. And so in addition to basically the video streaming we did also a couple of game integration and we also brought in several influencers to relay the message on social platforms.

So , the result of that is really when the show came out on Netflix is what it was. I have a top 10 kids and families show and I think 42 countries or something like that. And so what we saw really is that Roblox adverts win fast effect in terms of really building.

wide awareness for a new brand, new characters. And and but it was not easy in terms of the execution. There were many details, but it really showed us that it had a huge impact. So I'm seeing more and more, in fact, entertainment brands being present on Roblox to launch new movies, new series.

I think there's definitely a strong affinity there in terms of that type of content. And and the audience on Roblox.

David: Do you think that there's a world where, Roblox is no longer a marketing funnel for Netflix, but is actually a competitor in the sense of people are consuming linear content on Roblox instead of Netflix?

Yves: I think you need both The average successful game session on Roblox is 11 to 12 minutes. So you're not going to get a movie in 11, 12 minutes.

David: That's fair.

Yves: So I think it's it's a bit like if you look at YouTube. Yes, you can say it's a competitor also on Netflix, but There are different formats, so I think the length of format, the the way the content is formatted so all of that, I think it is changing.

At the same time, we're definitely seeing some elements from gaming coming in the world of entertainment. For example they are recently more and more entertainment companies posting videos of game plays shot inside roadblocks and they use that as content. So I think this is where also you see really the, but both worlds really converging.

David: I guess what I'm wondering is. For brands that are starting to look at Roblox, what should they be doing from an approach perspective? Are there certain types of marketing that they should just avoid entirely? What are the, how would you categorize where you found success that you, you know, recommend to other brands?

Yves: First thing, I think it's to look a bit at your demographic, about half the players on Roblox are under 13. So for us, it made a lot of sense to be on the platform. I think if you're a brand who's interested in Gen Z and Gen Alpha, Roblox is definitely a great platform, so I think it's number one.

I think the second is a bit connected to a previous, your previous question related to, impact on what is the impact, what is your KPI? I see some brands clearly coming to Roblox for PR. And just communication, and it's a way for them to talk about innovation. I think it's totally fair and fine, and it makes sense in their marketing plan.

I think for us, it was not bad. Like I said, it was really more engagement for your brands with characters, with storytelling and, having some impact on sales. So I think that's really the first thing to look at. The second is really you need to be hands on. You really need to play games.

You need to have the teams who are going to work on this project to really play on Roblox. And it's not easy at the beginning, definitely for, I think, anyone above 25. It tends to be a bit challenging at the beginning. And then you need also to really like I mentioned earlier for us, meet, different game studios and marketing agencies.

There are, in fact, a relatively limited number of consultant and game studios and agencies will navigate in the Roblox universe. And I think it's important to really meet people you can relate to. I think the other piece is really important to not think as just a game integration, but like what I mentioned earlier, should this be more of an entertainment experience? Should this be a gaming experience? Is this a concert? Is this an event? And what do you want to build? And then based on that, you have to choose your partner. You have to choose a partner who has already done what you want to do and in a successful way.

What I mean is, for example, if you want to create a concert, talk to studios who have already made successful live events and concerts. Don't talk to a gaming studio who's only making games. You and vice versa, if you want to make a game, work with game studios that have made successful games before, not just experiences.

So I think it's, I say a bit the obvious, but I think it's just important to, in general, in gaming development to, to work when you outsource with people who have done some kind of similar projects before and in, in successful ways.

David: Yeah, you say that it's obvious, but the behavior that I've observed on the Roblox platform is that brands are working with developers who haven't had, success in terms of, driving significant engagement through a game.

And oftentimes, the results are underwhelming. Even though I know

Yves: I I see that regularly and it's true. But I'm always a bit surprised. But at the same time, it's a new platform. So I think we all have to accept that there's a bit of R and D.

David: Everyone is learning and, going back to spin master, I'm curious how you think about whether something would make more sense for Roblox versus a mobile game. What's how do you bucket these IP into?

Yves: I think it's a bit like what I was describing earlier. If I had to compare, this very stylish IP like Paw Patrol or Rubik's Cube this is where we're going to be probably, more involved with mobile.

Because for example, with mobile, like a model we see working really well with parents is subscription. In fact we have a a subscription of multiple apps called picnic and, This is something that's really as we started last year and that's very successful and with high growth.

So we see that it's also, that model responds well to our parents are with their phones and controlling their kids time. I think Roblox, we're seeing, we definitely don't want to look at preschoolers. It's definitely for, say kids, twins and teens. And again, experiences where 3D makes sense.

We're also. Socialization makes sense because it's obviously it's a very big dimension of Roblox is. Players are going to talk about the game together, they're going to bring their friends in, they're going to make new friends in. Several times when I looked at some of our games and experiences, seeing kids from different parts of the world, playing together, I always find that fascinating.

David: Yeah, for sure. I'm curious just when you think about the future of Roblox, of Spin Master in the gaming segment of Spin Master, what are the opportunities that you're most excited about?

Yves: We look at all the trends. So obviously, a few weeks ago, as you're aware Walmart opened a store on Roblox.

And, I always remember from the last year Roblox developer conference Roblox CEO mentioning that for a lot of developers, the revenue coming from physical goods might be greater than digital goods. And so obviously for a company like us, shipping millions of products a year this is an interesting new paradigm and we're, Walmart is one of our largest customer on the toy side.

All these things, might bring us in a new dimension that we don't have today.

David: In terms of timeline, do you see this happening in, being an opportunity in the next couple years?

Yves: Honestly, I don't know. I don't know. I think it's, for now, it's very experimental from, I think, both Walmart and Roblox.

I don't know their timelines and we're, right now we're trying to get more. Detail information and there's obviously also some legal dimension to it. So we're looking at all of that.

David: Do you think anything? Would be pot would something be possible? similarly on mobile platforms in the future where you can, play you know toka boka and potentially buy a plushie in game or get a discount code or something.

Yves: Yeah. So you have, regulations like COPA where basically you cannot really sell to kids. So that's why it's very it's its own ecosystem. And this is probably like one of the more fundamental dimension in terms of bringing e commerce into kids product.

Yeah it's not something that that can be done.

David: Got it.

Yves: For many, yeah, for just for

David: safety

Yves: for, For children.

David: We're leaving it to Roblox and Apple to figure out how to execute on that. And if the opportunity presents itself, then we'll do it.

Yves: Exactly. No. So I think, to come back on your question, I think some of the dimensions that are interesting for a company like us with toys is how can we connect toys and digital experiences, right?

How can I basically have a toy becoming a super toy because you already unlock this feature in your Roblox kit or in a mobile app. So these are things that we are, Playing with in terms of R and D and looking at for now, it's very clunky. The connection between digital and physical is when you look at everything done it's not something that works well, but you know, I, I'm, I'm optimistic that something will happen there.

Obviously there are more and more gaming platforms opening up. We see a lot of social platforms becoming also gaming platform YouTube now and over. Is this is also something that we're looking at. And then, we're a global company, and I've been being able to exist, in the metaverse.

We consider Roblox being the metaverse. It's also that notion of being able to create digital events. So we think for, some of our product launch or content launch, this is also a great opportunity to say come, at this time and you will all watch together this new content or we'll play together that new game.

I think that opens the door to things that we couldn't do necessarily on mobile. Got it. Makes sense.

David: When you, so speaking of the Metaverse, we've talked a lot about Roblox. Are there other platforms are interesting, and why or why not?

Yves: Yeah, I'm always looking at the data and the number of active players.

So we're of course looking at Fortnite for now. When I look at uh, Fortnight creative experiences, the numbers are much, much smaller than what we're talking on Roblox. The other piece, but I understand from a lot of experts on Fortnight is that. The core gameplay of, of basically, being a competition and shooting all the other players around you is still like the main core play and, we don't do anything with guns, so it doesn't match really what we do here.

And yeah, no we're, again, like we, We've been looking at over metaverse platform, but for now, the numbers are really far apart from what we've been able to do on Roblox. So we're very focused on that platform.

David: Yeah, makes sense. There's so much opportunity, so many different ways that you can show up on the platform.

Exactly. Awesome. Anything else that is top of mind in the future?

Yves: I think really like, you know, again, when we were talking earlier about the success of Tokabuka World, it's really a success of a live operations business. It's really like game as a service, right? And so when we launched new products like Tokabuka Days, that's what we're looking at is like, how do we create an architecture and a product roadmap and also content, collaboration or various partnerships.

To expand this product it's going to be a lot about this, live operation and really keeping the, this product, iterating these products at a fast pace, but really growing them globally. And also in terms of audiences.

David: I always say if you want to have a sustainable live operations, then you should probably think about UGC as a key part of that.

Are you guys thinking about UGC in, in the future?

Yves: So, you know, uh, My favorite number about Tokabuka world is it's all about creating your room, your little house to customizing it. And players are basically posting millions of videos every month. In fact, when we total the TikTok and YouTube posts, it's about 3 billion views a month.

David: Wow.

Yves: For Tokabuka. Exactly. Exactly. And so. that's where the UGC is. And I, And I know that in fact, I was, I keep thinking that we need to invent a new term because UGC is a bit too many different things today. But when we talk about the old definition of UGC, which is, generating video content we're seeing that as incredibly successful for Tokabuka world.

And again, it's, this is basically the number one marketing Source for that platform. And we're hoping that for Tokaboka days, it will be very similar.

David: Yeah. And I, when you mentioned the 60 million MAU, I looked up where Tokaboka is on data. ai in terms of ranking, and it's number 19 right now in terms of all games in the world.

So this is a massive mobile game. And so I guess it's not so surprising that many people are posting about it on TikTok.

Yves: Correct. And what's been interesting is that also now, in fact, we have brands and companies who want to collaborate with us inside Tokabuka. So, uh, Recently we Sunrayo and Hello Kitty inside Tokabuka and created, a lot of fun avatar tools and customization tools with them.

We just announced this week we launched with an artist Conan Gray, I'm not sure if you're familiar with him is a big universal music artist. And so we, we have basically this Voxela uh, area. It's it's the Coachella of Toka Boka world and and we are a concert and you can play music inside.

 It's a really interesting way to, to look at the development of that platform again. Like it's all been by, live operations and iteration of.

David: We've been talking about Roblox as a platform where brands are integrating, here is Toka Boka world doing the exact same thing.

Yves: Yeah. It's much more curated, we talk to many brands and. We want to have a very strong affinity between what the players of Toca Boca world want in terms of brands or artists and yeah we're going to have More brands last year. We also partner with a SpongeBob and the team at Paramount.

So we're bringing regularly new brands in Toca Boca world because it's, yeah, it's massive. And again, like there's all this like fun creations that we can create with his brand. It's Yeah, it's a really interesting area of growth for us.

David: That's

Yves: super cool.

David: Yeah. And just going forward, as we wrap up the call, how can people get in touch with you?

How can they follow you? What's the best way to.

Yves: LinkedIn. I'm on LinkedIn. They can connect with me on LinkedIn. And I don't yeah I'm I check regularly my messages and when there is something that makes sense. I will respond.

David: Awesome. Thanks so much for joining the podcast. It's been great to have you.

Spin Master seems like it's on the forefront of Video games, entertainment broadly, linear television. It's a really exciting place to be. So thanks for sharing.

Yves: Thank you so much.

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