As digital platforms evolve, so too does the business of tabletop RPGs (TTRPGs). In this episode, host Devin Becker sits down with David Scott, CEO of Evil Genius Games, to explore the intersection of analog and digital in the TTRPG space. David shares his perspective on where the market currently stands, the evolving role of virtual tabletops, and how Evil Genius is adapting its publishing model to bridge physical and digital experiences. From post-COVID shifts in player behavior to the rise of Virtual Tabletops (VTTs) like Roll20 and Foundry, the conversation examines how platforms are reshaping distribution, play, and monetization strategies.
The discussion also covers how TTRPG companies can integrate digital offerings without cannibalizing physical sales of books, miniatures, and accessories. David offers a candid look at what’s working (and what isn’t) when it comes to building sustainable business models in this hybrid space. Finally, we explore the opportunities for smaller TTRPG IPs to make the leap into digital gaming, the potential of platforms like Roblox to support roleplaying, and how ongoing challenges like tariffs may influence the industry’s trajectory in the next few years.
We’d like to thank Heroic Labs for making this episode possible! Thousands of studios have trusted Heroic Labs to help them focus on their games and not worry about gametech or scaling for success. To learn more and reach out, visit https://heroiclabs.com/?utm_source=Naavik&utm_medium=CPC&utm_campaign=Podcast
We’d also like to thank Lysto for making this episode possible! Lysto is revolutionizing how game development teams collect and act on real player feedback with its AI-powered playtesting insights. Learn more about how you can get bias-free feedback at https://lysto.gg/?utm_source=naavik&utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=ad
This transcript is machine-generated, and we apologize for any errors.
Devin: Hello everyone. I'm your host, Devin Becker, and today I'm delighted to be joined by Dave Scott, CEO of Evil Genius Games. Evil Genius Games publishes a popular tabletop RPG system that includes content for a number of popular IPs, including Pacific Rim, Highlander, Rambo, and much more.
And so today we're actually gonna discuss an interesting intersection between tabletop gaming and digital platforms. So just to start off with, get people familiar with you, could you just go over your background in games real quick, and what Evil Genius Games does?
Dave: Yeah, absolutely. Hey, thanks for having me on the show.
My name is Dave Scott, CEO, and founder of Evil Genius Games you know, listen, I'll, I'll give you my resume for games, which is I was 11 years old, I went away to Sleepaway Camp. They were playing this game called Dungeons and Dragons. They were playing White Plume Mountain, if you remember that module.
And I was forever sold. And so, for the past 35 years, every Tuesday I've been playing Dungeons and Dragons. So, I've been a huge, uh, tabletop role-playing game nerd since I was 11 and, and have not turned back ever since.
Devin: Cool. And so, what is Evil Genius Games doing kind of overall right now besides the, you know, the tabletop RPGs for the, the IP that I mentioned?
Dave: Yeah, I mean, so as much as I love Dungeons and Dragons, Dungeons and Dragons is a one property business. It focuses primarily on what I would consider European fantasy. So, if you wanted to play an elf wizard or a gnome rogue, that's your game, right? There's, there's, it is unrivaled in the aspect of a fantasy type, tabletop role-playing game experience.
For me, I was always that kid that liked that, but then also wanted to do other genres like science fiction, which is great, but then also modern. I was always obsessed with these modern tabletop role playing games growing up. What does that mean? That means Champions, GOPs Mutants and Masterminds, Marvel Superheroes, DC Superheroes, and my all-time favorite D 20 Modern.
For those of you guys who don't know what D 20 Modern is, D 20 Modern was Wizards of the Coast attempt to move away from just fantasy. So back in 2001, some of the best designers at Wizards of the Coast, including Jeff Grub, one of the people who helped me start this company, went out and took third edition D&D.
By the way, it's on fifth Edition now. It's gone through five editions of the, of the refinement of the mechanics, and decided that they were gonna apply that to other genres other than Dungeons and Dragons. That's what birthed the OGL, which created this industry in general. What it also birthed was at birth D 20 Modern, which was the modern day action hero take of Dungeons and Dragons.
And so, what we here at Evil Genius Games has done is we've recreated that modern day action hero system that competes with D&D, but specifically focuses on the shoot 'em ups, the action, the John Wicks, the Die-Hards of the world, so on and so forth.
Devin: Cool. Well, well, hopefully we can get a, a John Wick or a Die-Hard in there at some point.
And just to mention, because you didn't mention the name of, of the system, I wanted to make sure people know what that's called as well, was Everyday Heroes is the name of the system and there's, there's a number of different modules for it and things like that. Very cool system. Definitely I appreciate a little bit of the history of the platform as well there because not everyone is, is familiar, being, you know, this a little more focused often on video games, but I, I mean, before we go too much into the digital space, what's kinda your high level take on the tabletop RPG market in general right now? Because it's gone through a lot of interesting things over the last few years and it's kind of an interesting space overall.
Dave: Yeah. Well, you know, the, the tabletop role playing game space is a juggernaut and people don't really understand that, right?
And so, if you take a step back, the tabletop gaming industry is around $30 billion in size, and it's growing faster than the video game industry. So, it's growing at 11.8%. You know better than I do, how fast the video game industry is growing, and I think a lot of part of that is that people are looking to find ways to unplug and reconnect with family.
And COVID was a large part of that, right? So people couldn't go to the bars, people had to social distance. A lot of my friends personally moved away and so we were trying to figure out wholesome ways to connect. And a lot of families started buying board games and started playing Scrabble again and settlers the Catan and, you know, Pandemic, you know, and Risk. And they also started playing role-playing games, and people would play role-playing games with their families or they'd play role-playing games with their friends on some sort of zoom call. And then, all of a sudden, people started thinking about that as another form of entertainment that is less isolationist than video games because it really takes community to really to come together and play in one of these games.
And so, and so that's where I think there was this exciting resurgence on tabletop games and role-playing games. You know, it, it also had the exact same rise in popularity.
Devin: Cool. Yeah, I mean, I definitely think, you know, if you're trying to be remote playing a tabletop role playing game over Zoom or whatever, it's a lot easier than a board game, right.
Where you're trying to like, I move my piece and then you gotta move it as well. Like, you know, it reminds me of people trying to play chess by mail kind of thing. It's, it's not easy. Right. Whereas a tabletop roleplay Game's theater of the mind a little bit easier to do that. But, you know, how, how do you think they overlap with video games and digital platforms in general?
Dave: Yeah, I mean, I think there's some similarities. I think there's some distinction, right? And so what I typically try to explain to people is that, playing a tabletop role playing game online does not necessarily mean that you're recreating, you're creating a video game like experience for it. And I gotta say like I am role-playing game enthusiast in and out, right?
So, I just wanna give some ups to see CD Project Red for Cyberpunk for all the amazing Gabe the Witcher. I still play the Witcher here for BioWare 'cause I love Mass Effect 3. I loved Dragon Age. I was a huge fan of the Star Wars, Knights of the Old Republic. Like I love a good video game, RPG, but that is not the experience that we're bringing online when we're talking about playing a game.
My friends and family, when you play a game with your friends and family over a VTT, virtual tabletop or what have you, you are the star. Your friends are the star. It's not the technology that's the star. And so all that the technology does is enable an experience that allows us to do all the coolest things that we do in a tabletop gaming experience. And I think that's the real key distinction.
Devin: I mean, it's definitely, especially over time kind of shifted I think because the technology's changed as well and what it can, can and can't do. Right? Obviously, like I said, it is changed a little bit since like play by mail kind of thing. We do a little bit more with, uh, zoom calls or Discord or whatever it is right now.
What is Evil Genius Games specifically doing in the digital space? Just, and that, you know, since this is obviously an area you guys have been exploring.
Dave: Yeah. So, my, my background is technology, right? So, I've started and sold three startups, all within sort of the consumer and entertainment space.
My last company was a company called Lly, which did on-demand streaming comedy. We sold that company in 2018 to Kevin Hart and Lionsgate and, and so, I love technology. That's my bread and butter. But when we started to think about building this company in general, the first thing we had to say was that we had to first and foremost build a good game.
And that's when we started down the journey of building Everyday Heroes and we built it as a physical product. That's where we started, and we wanted to create a game that competed with Dungeons and Dragons. It competed with all the other greats out there, and we went analogue. Then after we knew we had a good game, by the way, our game is over 1,005 star reviews across the various review sites, and people play it on a regular basis.
I then went out and sort of said, now let's figure out how to be able to recreate that experience soup to nuts online. So, we're sort of a two-part company. First is we're a traditional publishing company. We build great games, right? Our core system is everyday heroes. Everyday heroes allows you to play any form of action, action game you want, whether or not that be Jack the Ripper in the Victorian age, or whether that, whether that, that be edge of tomorrow in a near future setting.
And then we actually created a framework for people to do that. Then we created campaign settings, so very somewhat a Raven Loft, which is a really famous campaign setting for Dungeons and Dragons, or Eon, which is another famous campaign setting., We actually created campaign settings, and what we did initially was we decided to work with Hollywood to create campaign settings based off famous movie franchises, so we have nine of them out, which includes Pacific Ri Kong, Skull Island, the Crow Highlander, Escape from New York, Universal Soldier. Total Recall, Rambo. Then we just released, I'm really excited to announce this, which is Return of Living Dead for the 40th anniversary of the film.
Nice. And so what we've done is with those slot right on top of our Everyday Heroes core system, and it creates a pantheon of really, really great storytelling that's on top of it. But we're not stopping there once we've actually created those games in an analogue format. We began to recreate them in a digital experience, allowing you to be able to bring that exact same fun and excitement, but do it online.
And when you go onto our, our, our subscription platform, which is called Sidekick, not only do you see those games, but then you also see. 80 more games that we've created based on all these various genres. So, if you like Apocalypse, we've got Everyday Apocalypse. If you like Jurassic Park, we got Jurassic Heroes.
If you like slasher movies this month we're coming off everyday Slashers. So, um, so we're really sort of proving the model that it's truly extensive and that any modern day story could be told on our platform, in person or online.
Devin: Nice. I mean, definitely a lot of flexibility there. A little, a little easier to sort of re-skin than a video game, at least in a, a timely manner, right?
Dave: Well, except for, you know, like, like what I, I, we took our inspiration from Fortnite. Fortnite, I think does an amazing job, right? So, all the physics and the game engine is all built in that Fortnite system, but then you could jump on, and you could sort of play, you know, the Walking Dead version of it or what have you.
And so that was very much one of our inspirations going into how we thought about how extensible our system should be.
Devin: Then you're gonna have to talk to Epic and see if you could do a, a Fortnite licensed one and Everyday Heroes. That would be, that would be a very interesting crossover to say the least considering the, the sort of back and forth they have. There are, there are a lot of people trying to get into this space, right? The virtual tabletop space, both sort of like entrenched people like Dungeons and Dragons under Wizards of the Coast, which is under Hasbro, so on. They, they're trying to do their sort of thing in their space.
And then you've got, you know, companies that are doing just the virtual tabletop side of things like Roll 20 Foundry with their virtual VTT, Alchemy, things like that. What, what do you see coming outta these competitors? What are they doing that's, that's working well? What isn't working well? Like what's your kind of take on that space as it exists right now, especially post COVID, where like a lot of that, I wouldn't say a gold rush, but just like a lot of push in that, in that direction.
Dave: Yeah, I think you're absolutely right, Devin. So, when COVID happened and people realized they couldn't get, get together, there was a technological revolution among tabletop role playing game technology providers, right? And all of a sudden, everyone was scrambling to figure out how to bring that gaming experience online.
And then there were guy, there were the OGs like Role 20, which had, had already had a platform, which you saw an amazing explosion to what now? Maybe 10 million monthly active users. But then you also have like dozens and dozens of new, of new companies that just started out, that created these technologies within, within just a couple of years.
And I would actually tell you it was a relatively crowded space. I think unfortunately a lot of them have gone by the wayside now, but at one point in time it was incredibly crowded with upstarts that were trying to figure this thing out. And I think the, the one fundamental problem that I think all of those folks had, was that they were trying to solve one problem, but not all the problems that you needed in order to bring that experience online. What did I mean by that? I think that you need five things to have to happen in order to create a cohesive gaming experience. Number one is you need an actual game, and the game has to be in digital format.
Number two is you actually need a way to build a character easily. Number three is you have to have a way to be able to build an encounter, right? So, if you're the game master, setting up maps, creating stat blocks, finding tokens for your enemies, that kind of stuff. Fourth is if you're a really big fan of user generated content.
So, and by the way, what I love about this industry is how much fan content is built out there. You need a way to be able to integrate your user generated content or your home brew, right? So, if you have your own specific rules that you run in your game, that has to be reflected in the system. And then fifth is you need a virtual tabletop to run the game.
The problem is, is that a lot of these guys came out and they only did one of the five, which meant that an average game and, and even with my average game, you need three to five technologies to play the game. So, in, in some cases, the, the audio and video is not great in a lot of these VTT. So you're playing it on Discord, and then you're playing it on VTT itself.
And then you really, really like the D&D beyond version of the character maker or the hero labs version of the character maker. And so now you have a third-party character generator. And so now I'm sitting on three, minimum three games. Oh, by the way, I also have a PDF copy of my game, which, which is running on Adobe Acrobat.
So, now I've got four technologies running to play one single game. And I think that that process is broken.
Devin: That makes sense. And, and especially if there's kind of a common thread through all these games, like you talk about characters are just a common thing to all these games and counters in combat and, and that sort of like problem solving conflict system.
Is obviously you. I wouldn't say all of 'em 'cause there's, there's some interesting creative narrative takes in the indie space, but in general, the majority of them are gonna have some sort of conflict resolution system that, that you're gonna be going through. So, I mean, it makes sense to write, to kind of break it down into those cores.
And so, I'm interested to see like, kind of where that goes. But like, I wanna figure out like, how does this integrate with sort of the business model of tabletop RPGs? Right? Like, like, why don't you kind of just quickly explain like, how does the business model work in general for tabletop RPGs?
Because it is a little unique compared to a lot of other, like even board games and things like that, and how does it fit in with digital platforms or even just digital versions of the product.
Dave: Well, you know, and that's what one of the things I was pleasantly surprised with, right? As a, as a tech, CEO, uh, I, I, I have to be very well versed in business models, right?
Understanding SaaS platforms and flywheels and day one mentality, that kind of stuff. And what I was really love about this industry is I think it's got all the right bits and pieces to be an extremely profitable business while still being able to serve the community. Why? Because the 150 million people that play these types of games are passionate.
Um, and so when I say that I've been playing since I was 11 years old, that means I've been playing for 35 years. This game, this one game with one, it's a long game. A lot of hours of content. It's a long game baby. It's a long game baby. And the thing about it is name any other sort of thing. Any other hobby where it's, it's like that, right?
And so, you have these really, really loyal customers. I've got customers, we're about two and a half, maybe three years old. I've got customers that have been playing my game for three years. They're lifetime players because they're looking for a modern game. They're looking for one that's good, easy to understand.
Ours fit the, the mold, and this is what they play now forever. They're my forever customer. And what does that mean? You know, if you're a VC, you're, you're trying to calculate my LTV. It's a pretty good LTVI was gonna say LTP, but I wasn't sure if you wanted to bring that up. Yeah. When I've got, when I've got an average buyer that spends $585 a year on these types of things, and they never churn.
And so and so, so it's a, it's a great customer. The business model's great. I think the DD beyond and, and role 20 and others have sort of built my business model for me, so I'm a fast follower. Which means that it's not uncommon for me to offer a subscription to be able to provide the virtual tabletop gaming experience that people love.
That a subscription tends to be low, right? Because it's providing a minimum layer of functionality. And then it's not uncommon for people to buy games on top of it. So, I've got a dual model, right? So, you pay a flat, they pay a recurring revenue fee, and then on top of that, people pick up games. Those games are purchased, and they get integrated into the virtual model.
And then that virtual model, then they can, and launch them to be able to play that particular scenario or source a cinematic setting on top of the subscription.
Devin: So, one area that I always find kind of interesting as there's sort of this shift into the digital space, especially as people just live farther apart.
You know, a lot of people, as you said, move during COVID. So even if it's, Hey, we could, we could be closer than six feet now, but everyone moved a lot farther than six feet away from each other. So it's a big, you know, it's a big deal for people to be able to do that, but. Where I get kind of a little, or I see a lot of concern is cannibalization, right?
Where like, if I could buy it cheaper digitally, or I'm buying it in this product, or I'm getting it via subscription, is that cannibalize the physical one? It's like, just gives an example of what you're offering, right? Where I, I'm paying say like a $5 month for sidekick and I'm getting the everyday heroes this big, thick.
Rule book that normally costs, was it like 50, 40, 50? I, I don't remember the retail price. $60 maybe. Right. And so, you're, you're, you're, you're potentially canceling that out, right? Like, and then you're looking at like, okay, maybe some of the add-ons as well, like they, their books or miniatures or other physical accessories like custom dice.
Is there that cannibalization or is this, are you seeing it as like an extension where people are buying it twice, three times? You know, what, what does it look like in the market?
Dave: Yeah. It turns out that people are buying our game an average of three times. They're buying the physical game 'cause they wanna sit, they wanted to sit on their shelf and they wanna show people their library.
They're buying the PDF or the digital version of it because it's more functional and more easy to use. And if they're using a virtual tabletop, they gotta buy it on there as well. The travesty that's going on in our industry right now is that if I'm using a virtual table. I'm using a character builder.
For example, let's say I'm using D&D beyond enroll 20, I'm actually buying my game four to five times. I'm buying the physical D&D's player's handbook. I'm buying the PDF version of it would, because I've got a, you know, 'cause it's more transportable. I'm going on a d, d beyond and I'm buying it again, and then I'm going on roll 20 and I'm buying it again.
So that $60, player's handbook that I bought at Barnes and Noble, by the time I'm playing it, I've now spent $180 to play that game. And I think that's a travesty, right? And, and so, but I do think that what we're experiencing is that people like to have both the digital version of it and the physical version of it.
And the way that I actually liken, liken it is I, like, I liken it to the music industry, right? So, you know, a billion years ago we used to buy CDs. I used to carry around my CDs and a little zip folder and, and hope that no one stole my little zip folder of, of a thousand CDs, my, my UB 40 CD or whatever. And, and, and I paid $30 a CD, which was like super dumb, right?
Because I like one or two songs per album. And then Napster came along and ultimately Spotify, and then all of a sudden, I could just pay for one song at a time, which I think, you know, and then now you have a streaming experience. And I think that streaming experience now is dominant, not necessarily because it's better not it's dominant because it was better, it's a better user experience.
It, it's, it is more natural to how I would necessarily wanna listen to music, but now people are going back and buying the vinyls again. They're buying the vinyls because they want to collect, they want to collect them, and they wanna show them off to their friends. And every once in a while they want a better experience and a more tactile experience, and they throw it onto their record player and play it.
I actually think that that's how we're gonna be going as an industry is that people are gonna prefer the online experience because it just simply is better. But they're still gonna buy the, the collectible because it is cooler.
Devin: Makes sense. I mean, you've got stuff like limited run even now for like old, you know, games that have been running for a while, things like that.
I, I, myself actually, I, I was so technology forward, I thought, you know, I could just get away with just buying PDFs and just reading them on like an iPad or some other, like, and I still find myself buying the physical books too, so I, I have to second that. It's, it is a weird thing and there is a tactile, like a lot of books know.
Yeah. But books like that, like it's, where it's like this ton, there's of rules.
Dave: Nothing better than like. Licking your finger. Flipping the page. Page. Yeah. Well, the new smell, right?
Devin: That you get of that, that specific and the smell and the—
Dave: The ribbon, you know, it's, it's—
Devin: The, the bookmark ribbons, that's one of those nice feature ads that have, that have sort of grown in over time.
That I think is nice. But I, I, I guess that I gotta ask, like, do you see, like, I, obviously piracy is like, in theory quite easy for this space, right? Especially if you could buy PDFs that might be unprotected, might have your name on it might not. Is that something you're seeing being a problem?
Obviously, like you are not. Like probably at the, the DD level, right? Where it's like mass market, but they also probably could absorb some piracy costs, whereas you guys are smaller, maybe more community driven. What do you like, how do you see that space right now in terms of piracy?
Dave: Yeah. You know, it's, it's, it's interesting, right?
Because I think there, there's two dynamics that are going on in this space, right? One is, I think that this community is one of the most law abiding communities I've ever, I've ever played, right? I mean, we're playing a game which is based on a system of rules. And I think people are very ethical and I think that they, they, they, they actually wanna spend money where it counts because they wanna support their local artists.
And so, and they care about that. So when I go to conventions like GenCon, which by the way is one of the largest conventions in the world, and if you haven't gone, go, you know, I, people will log up and go, I'm buying this game because I wanna support you, so you keep making other great games. And so, and so I think that that is going for us.
On the other hand, I think there's a tremendous amount of piracy going on, but I think it's going on for the right reasons. Now, so listen. I'm gonna make a confession. When I was a student in college, I had no money. Was I buying the Microsoft suite? No, I was ripping it off. Right. But I do think that Microsoft, for example, was turning the other cheek for that.
And I think the reason why they were turning the other cheek was 'cause they knew that when I got into the workplace and when I had money, I was now trained on Microsoft, and I wasn't gonna be working on something else. I, and I was gonna pay my, my dues and I was gonna pay the license when I could afford it.
And I think that's very much the sort of system here, which is, I think what ends up happening is, is that when I'm the game master, I buy a game, I buy the book, and I read it through it. And when I'm trying to convince my cousin and my sister and my brother and my dad to play it, I, I'm not gonna ask 'em to spend $60 to plot out a game that they've never played before.
I'm gonna give my book to them and let them make a character off my own game. Then only after three to four sessions and they know that they're gonna like it. They're gonna go out and buy their own version of the book. And I think that's kind of the way, that's the customer journey that we see with our space.
And I think that's perfectly fine. So one of the functionalities that we put in our game when, into our system, which I think is important, is , if you have a subscription, you could share a game, you could share your product with other players, and they get full access to the product like they bought it themselves.
If they can do that for up to four other players. And, and so as a result, we have, uh, five times as many free users on our platform as we have subscribe subscribed users, and I think that that's okay.
Devin: Yeah, it's interesting to see, like we've seen a few games try and do like video games, try and do recently, like that idea where you, only one person has to own a copy and they can play co-op with other people.
And then, but there's that interesting sort of phenomenon of what, like, well, okay, I can play it with you for free because of your copy, but what if I wanna play with this other friend? Now one of us has to buy, you gotta buy it. Buy. And there's, there's this interesting sort of network effect that's like maybe a slow grow sort of long tail network effect.
But it is interesting because it's like, yeah, it, in order to run a game, I might be playing a, a tabletop RPG game with like six people total. And only one of those people bought it, but does it then maybe then one of those other five slowly buys it and then maybe another one of those five. It is an interesting sort of system where the players themselves often don't have to, and someone, you know, then just buys it.
And, and I had heard some of the things to your Microsoft story about like Adobe, other people. So the same thing where Adobe kinda sometimes maybe looks the other way, uh, because people then get, you know, stuck on Photoshop and everything else, and then when they go into the workforce is what they know.
Dave: Like do, do, do you think, do you think Netflix tomorrow could actually shut down all the piracy that's going on with people sharing their passwords?
Devin: And, you know, they, they've definitely started to try a little bit, right? And you see some of that crackdown and it is interesting to see them try and go that way.
Right? And it's like, you do wonder, like, is there sort of a, a like, okay, well we'll allow a certain amount of sharing, you know, where they go like, oh, maybe four households or something. Like, Disney plus had 10 devices when it first started. So, there is sort of an interesting business model around sharing there, that you can see in like a, like an allowable amount of piracy, right?
Where you're like, you know, some people download the PDFs. Chances are they're probably actually going to eventually buy the physical book or play with someone who did and they're just maybe previewing the game. So, it is interesting, sort of like I guess assuming people are eventually of the alignment lawful at some point is an interesting take on it from business perspective.
Looking at it though, like when it comes to like then transitioning over to video games and, and looking at maybe these games as more of like an IP said, so like take for example Dungeons and Dragons, right? Where in some ways it's become almost more of an IP than just a game system, right? Where everyone's heard of it, you see it in Stranger Things and everything else.
It gets referenced. Obviously, there's the Chris Pine movie, things like that. But you've also got video games, like I think the biggest example we've got is Balder's Gate three. And not everyone realizes that's, that's a d and d property. Right. And that is hugely successful. Not all of them. Not every, you know, game in that property is always going to be as hugely successful.
But there are a lot of Dungeons and Dragons games over time. We've seen going back to like the gold box games early in the day and stuff like that, when I think that was one, it was TSR still. Do you think there's a path for, 'cause we don't see it as much for other IP, you know, tabletop games. Do you think there's a path for some of these smaller tabletop RBG games to go, Hey, why don't we actually consider, you know, doing a, whether that be licensed or, or in-house some games?
Obviously. I think the other big example I, I don't want to gloss over that you mentioned earlier is cyberpunk was a huge one for bringing back the tabletop game in a major way, and then edge runners as well. That dipped into that, you know, for Netflix. So, I mean, do you think there's like a path there for small ones, like for yourself?
Like let's say you were to consider it for your game system, for example.
Dave: Yeah, I, I really do. Right. I mean, so. There's this concept of transmedia, right? Where once you build an IP in one area that IP then could be leveraged in other areas. And a lot of times that IP, you know, the, the, the sources of that original IP are really drying up, right?
So, 30 years ago used to make movies based off of books, right? A Godfather, you know, Twilight. And now you're finding that people are making less and less books. And so, Coley was trying to figure out where their next IP is coming from. And they started and they discovered comic books. And now all of a sudden, every single movie's a comic book for the past 20 years.
And now no one wants to see comic books anymore, comic book movies, right? So, um, I think that now they're searching for the next great story. I think what you're seeing now is video games are becoming a very fertile ground for the next movie franchise. But here's the trick. Not every video game is made equal.
So there's a huge difference between the last of us, which was an amazing series to Twisted Metal, which is not such an amazing series, and that is, is that one of them is coming from an RPG roots where the entire world has been built out. The last of us, the Witcher, Fallout are all great examples of that.
Whereas others were coming from an action film where there's not a lot of story or history to really build a plot around. And those are a little less, a little more challenging, like Halo, Twisted Metal and others. And so what you're seeing is, is that that, that what D&D has done really well is that they have.
They're just like a marble. They have figured out the storyline for, for Dungeons and Dragons, and they've told that story over and over and over again. Right? There have been D&D video games for the past 40 years. I remember playing, you know, Neverwinter Nights. I remember playing Baldur’s Gate One.
And then there have been really incredible knockoffs, which have used the exact same gaming engine. I remember Bard's Tale, you know, Might and Magic Wizardry. Zork, you know, and so, so that, that's been around forever and I think that, that any smart publisher like myself, we're gonna start taking advantage of those relationships and figuring out ways to unlock the code.
Like the amazing Ian, that producer of Cyberpunk Red did for Cyberpunk 27.
Devin: I mean, it makes sense. These games are game systems. They're sandbox game systems and it's like a video game is just content and, and I think people even forget, like we had like shadow run games going back to like Super Nintendo and Genesis as well, like a lot of these RPG games systems, Vampire the Masquerade.
Dave: Absolutely. I love that game. Yeah. That was so fun.
Devin: There's so many, and like even you mentioned Fallout and it's like a lot of people forget that Fallout's original roots were in GRPs before they had to change it because of a whole. Sn you, they had. So it's like these, there's so many of these with, with roots in those systems, as you said, fertile ground perhaps.
Like, especially when the systems become IP and are not just systems anymore. Like Cyberpunk was a good example. That Fallout was a good example that where like these systems had enough content within that bread, sort of their own unique take, 'cause I mean, you've got a, a ton of different Cyberpunk-esque ones, right?
But that one managed to sort of build its own sort of lore around Night City and its specific take on things and it, you know. It is become, it's almost like a juggernaut now off of that and then gone full circle back to the RPG and back into, and like now we're gonna get like another Edge Runner season because that just.
Won't seem to stop. Right. So it is interesting in that sense. What do you think though of like, instead of just building whole games from scratch in these systems, actually using video game platforms like say Roblox, or even if, if you were to do it in Fortnite, UEFN or, um, you know, there are other platforms where you kind make single player ones like RPG Maker, but just these, these platforms in general that are sort of sandbox creation platforms, UGC platforms, and obviously RPGs, as you say, are a UGC platform already.
What do you think about using those as a, Hey, I wanna go play you know, every everyday heroes in, in video game form. Could I just go make it in Roblox and then like, or at least an adventure for it and things like that. What do you think of that whole take on things?
Dave: Yeah, you, I mean, so listen, I, I don't, I don't know if those sandbox platforms really are, are, are able to bring that experience.
That full throated experience on online, which is why we exist. We are creating that sandbox experience that anyone could create that role playing game experience for a couple fundamental reasons, right? So, role playing game is basically, a convergence of what I would say three things. One is role play and the power behind tabletop role-playing games is the fact that I could be in a dungeon.
I can go left or right, or I could leave the dungeon and hike up a hill, right? It's not on rails, right? You know, I could encounter a bunch of orcs and I could talk my way out of it through singing and dancing. And that flexibility is hard to program. And so you have to build a system which is designed to allow that flexibility to breathe.
That's number one. Number two is that the, the game is based on a system of rules, and it's the rules. It's the fifth edition, which is the magic of d and d because it's the rule system that allows you to be able to explore the four walls of creativity and not break through the four walls of creativity.
And so, and so, a system that doesn't have that set of rules or is too confining or, or turin differently does not have the ability to, to provide that freedom of expression that you need to, to check a fireball into a dungeon and close the door, right? That fun stuff. And then the third component is the tactical aspect of it, right?
And so, one of the beautiful things about turn-based games is the, the tactics using a pole arm, which has a 10 feet reach is a very different gaming system and gaming dynamic in a combat than using a, a pair of daggers. So, so, so what we are doing is we're creating the infrastructure platform to allow us to do that, partly because we knew that Minecraft and Roblox and others couldn't do that the exact same way.
Devin: I mean, do you think there's, something kind of in between? So, like right now, like the systems you're trying to build, the systems, a lot of the competitors you're trying to build are trying to be very flexible, right? They're trying to like allow you to, if you want to sing your way outta combat, right?
Because they're trying to sort of empower the GM rather and, and like bring in the players rather than build a sort of video game system. Do you think there's something sort of in between like a full, you know, a ball, there's Gate three and a VTT, like, so I think a good example was like never Winter Knight's toolkit.
You mentioned Neverwinter Knights earlier. They're, they're venture creator, right? So, there's, there's a, people trying to sort of like build authoring tools that are like, Hey, we, we have this, the game system. Like it never went to nights, you know, using Dungeons and Dragons. So the game system's already in there, and then now we're just providing a sandbox for content.
And you could provide content and we can help, you know, a certain amount of physics to that content, a certain amount of rules. Do you think there's, like, I, because I don't feel like I'm seeing that space getting tapped as well, as, as opposed to either end of it. Yeah. Do you think there's some space there in the middle and what would that kind of look like?
Dave: I think you're right. Right? So, so if, if you look at the two extremes, right? So you got roll 20, which is basically a real, a flat map with a bunch of tokens on it, you know, at a, at a text-based dice roller. And then you got Baldur’s Three, which is built on the Unreal Engine, which is very, which has 3D models and 3D environments, and has dynamic gameplay, right?
So there, you know, or you know, you can even say excom, right? I mean, there's lots of different examples of turn-based games that have been successful over time that create a better, better, more comprehensive experience than potentially something like a Rule 20. There's gotta be something in between, but I think that there are obstacles, right?
So first and foremost is. Most game publishers are very, very small entities. Most game publishing entities are under five employees, and they are writers and artists. They're not game developers, and so there has to be a convergence and meeting of the minds between those people who are creating those tools and those people who are creating these tools.
The second component of it is I, I think it's expensive for me to be able to throw up a map on roll 20 and throw up tokens. I can actually hand draw a home, a token, stick a circle on it, upload it into roll 20, and now I've got a bad guy.
Devin: A theater, the mind just a little lower budget, right?
Dave: It is a little lower budget, right? And as opposed to like, you know, if I was trying to do that on Unreal Engine, I need a 3D modeler, I need a leveler, I need, you know, and so those tools, so there has to be a bridging in the gaps of those tools. Now the, the reality is, is that, that perhaps there are a lot of people out there who are trying to deal it with artificial intelligence, but I actually am anti artificial intelligence when it comes to this sort of thing.
And the reason is because it doesn't allow freedom of expression of the creator, the game master with the designer. And I think that's the, the lifeblood of, of tabletop role playing games. So, we are very, very much pro creator when it comes to it. However, I do think there are tool, their ability to allow the actual.
GM to become what I call superpowers and to give them the tools to be able to realize their vision and to do that in a very automated, potentially an automated way that allows 'em to become better at and, and to help them realize their vision quicker, faster, smarter, cheaper. And I think that's where you're gonna see the bridging of the gap, is where you start to, to provide those tools to the game master and make it easy for them to tell their story in a very, a better graphical and expressive way.
Devin: I guess you also have that sort of like in between where like you, there's, there's a game and an engine, and then like, sort of like the never winter dice example, but like taking it say like Skyrim or Fallout Modding, right. Where it's like people could create all kinds of content in there. And the, the rules are already there.
All the systems there. And it's a very sandboxy environment already. Yeah. So maybe, maybe there's like some more room in there where it's like, well, we, you don't want to like, so, far back of a platform that people have to build all that from scratch, like Roblox or an engine. And so, it's far enough along where the rules and stuff are already there, but then there's like plenty of room for content offering.
And then maybe as you said, there's something, some tools that help empower people to get over. You know, you talk about, okay, maybe I'm just making a, a Skyrim model or whatever, but to make a full blown adventure in that you're looking at a lot of work, a lot of content, stuff like that, and then it's like, yeah, maybe there's some tooling and other things that can start to help with that.
Obviously there's a, you know, assets already that exist in the game, so Yeah, maybe there, maybe there's. Some way to navigate that space in between, then you've gotta navigate the business model side of it as well. And, and that, that's another interesting area when we're talking about the business model side of things.
And, and it'd be interesting to see how that goes. Digital is, and I know you guys do it as well, you have this sort of like wheel licensed or open game license. Like there's different ways of, of putting it. Like, you know, you go from like D D's version to like Mor Borg's version where it's very, very different.
Where do you guys kind of sit in that sort of space with the, with the licensing?
Dave: Yeah, a lot of it really comes down to personal preference, right? And so I personally like the fifth edition. I like, I like the structure and the crunchiness of that type of engine. And there's a lot of people out there who don't, and so they go more towards like a Mor Mork or Dungeon Crawl Classics, what have you.
Or they go really, really far and they go to like an Amber D list system, right? Where it's all storytelling and there's no rolling whatsoever. But I actually like a little bit of crunch, And I also like the fact of how mainstream some of those elements are. Right? Everyone knows what a fireball is.
Everyone knows what a D 20 dice is. And so, I think that familiarity wins the day. Um, you're probably familiar with the fact that there was an OGL debacle where Whis the coast who just a little created the open gaming license and, and spawned this amazing industry which generated 16,000 small businesses.
They tried to pull that away and, they were unsuccessful, right? It, the, this, there's too much backlash. But that really caused a lot of people to rethink what, what type of relationships they had with the Open Gaming license. We were one of them. So, we originally started designing on the OGL and then we moved to, or, which is an open gaming license, which was pioneered by several publishing companies, including myself, as well as Pizo, which is sort of the second largest sort of, uh, role playing game system that's there, there originally.
Built off the OGL originally. Yeah. And so now we, you know, we serve, you know, we work off of our own independent, licensing community. And so, and so that's where we sit. We're, we're sort of D&D adjacent, but we, we control our own destiny.
Devin: Yeah, it, I mean, it's just an interesting space where it's like, it's sort of UGC, but with like a little bit more business side to it than just people could do whatever they want, right?
So, there's, there's usually rules or restrictions to some extent. There's, uh, you know, sometimes royalties or, you know, uh, whether or not, it depends if it's on a platform or not, right? 'cause there's D&D beyond and, and things like that. Depending on how it's served, right? Like are you paying for you to sort of go through a content store or like an app store kind of, kinda thing?
Or are you paying for just to say, Hey, it's compatible with this. It's, it seems like there's like a kind of a diverse space for this sort of thing to treat. These games as platforms rather than just as a particular game you're buying. Right. Whereas the video game industry seems to struggle a little bit with monetization in that space and licensing.
I mean, you've even got like stuff like with, with Blizzard trying to claw back mods in Warcraft three at some point, and then that whole debacle with Warcraft three remastered and that that struggle, right, where you're like, okay, I put out a platform, but I'm like, Hmm, like I'm even curious to see what, what GT six looks like in the modding community.
Right. Because that’s become a notorious mod platform, whereas TT RPG seemed to have found a little bit more of, of a middle ground where we're like, look, the game itself is always UGC. So like we're kind of okay with you taking it in a direction, but up to a certain extent.
Dave: Yeah. You know, it's funny, it's like I, you know, we, when you sort of open up the community to a build to build their own games, everyone dreads the day that someone creates the, the Nazi America, you know, version of their game.
I wrote that, and so and so as a result, right? Like, like it, it, it's a very scary place to be. But, but, but I think what's interesting about it is, is I still think that we're in the first or second inning of this technological revolution that's going on in the tabletop gaming industry, and a lot hasn't been figured out, right?
In terms of how do you really bridge that gap? And, and I've actually been surprised how much innovation has actually gone on to be able to close the gap between what World 20 has done, which is, by the way, they've been doing the exact same thing for 10 years to where Baldur’s Gate three is, which is a perfectly acceptable version of D&D.
In fact, as authentic, as authentic gets, there's that gap has not been closed and we're really one of the first companies to start to think about that. In a very meaningful way., So I'm excited about the future and, and what, what's gonna happen when we start to think about being able to create that video game-like experience, but still preserve the beauty and essence of what a tabletop game is supposed to be about.
Devin: Well, what do you think the next two years kind of looks like then? I mean, maybe you could go three years if it's a little more further out, but just assuming the intersection of video games and tabletop gaming continues, right. Whether that be through RPGs or miniature games or board games or whatever it is.
Virtual tabletop, all that stuff, and especially assuming tariff situation, for example, continues as, as a sort of impetus like, you know, like COVID was for, you know, some of these things. Tariffs are also a little bit of an impetus towards, uh, you know, these people looking at more digital products. What do, what do you think the future looks like then, uh, over the next few years?
Dave: Sure. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's, it's no surprise that, that my industry is struggling because of the tariff pop trade policies. And in fact, a lot of really prominent businesses are going out of outta business. Like, uh, gosh, whoever thought that, you know, seam o would go outta business, you know, coal may or not, those guys are on the top of their game.
And I think that ultimately manufacturing and shipping problems ultimately got them. And, and I, and I think that's just another reason. There's another feather in our cap saying that technology is gonna be playing a larger role. It has to play a larger role. And in fact, me personally, I prefer it.
I, I don't, I actually like the fact that I'm sitting in front of my computer. I can have on one screen the map, I have my character sheet on the other screen, and I could be jamming, right? And I'm not sitting in a crowded gaming hall and I can barely hear the GM and so on and so forth. So, I don't think we're going back to 100% physical gaming.
I still think physical gaming has a place. I still travel to gaming conventions and play 'cause it's fun. But I think that, I think that there, there, I think we're still got a ways to go., And I think there's a lot of, you know, tailwinds to really start to push the envelope as to where tabletop gaming could go, online, right?
Like, I just want give it up to a company called Mirror Escapee, which created the very first AR version of a virtual tabletop. So you could hold up your, your tablet on a, on a dinner table and it shows the map 3D version of the map. Very someone as if you had one physically in front of you.
I actually think that that virtual reality is an, is an absolutely natural way to play dungeon dragons, right? I can actually don on my VR headset and I can actually look like Aldo Baron, my Paladin. And I could actually cast fireballs and oh, I can't, how does I cast fireballs, but, uh, you know, lay on hands.
Yeah. And smite and, and I, I could see it and I'm there and like that is the ultimate form of cosplay, right? Yeah. And so, we we're gonna get there at some point in time. The question is how and when, and I think it's gonna be really exciting next decade for this, for this industry.
Devin: Yeah, it's a, it is always interesting seeing stuff like Demio, for example, on VR.
In VR that's kind of, that sort of like old school, Dungeons of Dragons vibe in VR is a very interesting play experience. Obviously, it's a little bit different than like the dawning, the garb and, and playing as the person. But yeah, it's still, but still. Interesting. Yeah.
Dave: Yeah. And it got 4.9 stars, you know, on Oculus Rift.
And, and, you know, as people started to do things like create business meetings on virtual reality, why not play these games on virtual reality?
Devin: Right. It's just, it's just a transition period right. As we get there eventually. Hopefully.
Dave: That's right. Yeah. Yeah. That's a, yeah. We, we have a whole session on virtual reality, right?
Devin: I'm sure. I'm sure. Beta would love that. But so we'll just do a quick rapid fire finish though, get, you know, get the last couple questions going. Real quick's good, uh, short answers before we let you go. So this one, I wanna skip all the answers we gave earlier. So, best video game adaptation of a TT RPG you've seen that's not Baldur's Gate, that's not Cyberpunk. Something maybe you haven't mentioned.
Dave: Oh, oh gosh. Best adaptation. Well, those are the best. Right? Right. But like, I mean, honestly like, like the Witcher three, you know, I think I put 300 hours into that game. That was unbeliefs, you know, just in terms of how good that game was. You know, but, you know, but, but, but, you know, Baldur’s Gate and, and Cyberpunk 2077 are really the, the icon, the, the Pinnacle examples.
There are very few others that really have done it, have done it, which is a shame. Pathfinder put out a game based off of Kingmaker, which was amazing, until it crashed on me and I lost my entire, I lost my entire kingdom, right? But like there needs to be more, you know, guys, let's, let's make more.
Devin: Yeah, I mean, obviously the path's been laid out from, from those guys, right? Just don't launch like Cyberpunk did. Maybe take the time to finish it. What, what do you think is, uh, is probably the most underrated virtual tabletop feature that no one's really paying attention to, or that you think like is, is something really people need to be thinking about more?
Obviously you mentioned some stuff a little bit earlier, but what do you, what do you think is kind of the, the really underrated one?
Dave: The, oh my gosh, the most underrated feature. You know, I, I, I think that tabletop games could be doing more on that character man side. So, if you ever play Role 20, Role 20 has a great character, man.
Basically, it's a wizard to allow you to build your character. And I think that's a really, really nice innovation. And being able to find ways to be able to, to increase the opportunity to, to, to integrate expansions would be a really, really cool feature. To add to a character answer.
Devin: Maybe, we'll, maybe we'll get someone to do one that I'll be like the old school, like Fallout kind of thing, or Daggerfall kind of thing, where just to ask you questions about yourself and like turn that if you remember the old school, like Elder Scroll stuff.
Dave: Yeah. Yeah. Well, what is it? Was it wizardry where they, you had to read tarot cards, right? Just some of those more creative. You created your systems.
Devin: That'd be pretty interesting just to make a game of it itself. Right? Like I, I always hear the term prep is play right. And sort of making that a thing.
What's, what's your favorite then? Non Evil Genius games. Non D&D tabletop, RPG. And if you got a, if you got a real juicy hot take, the one's thinking about it, even better.
Dave: Well, you know, like I said, I'm such a mainstream guy. Like I love Pathfinder. I've been playing Pathfinder now for nine years. I've got an amazing elf archer named Emmanuel.
That's super cool. So, I'm a huge Pathfinder person. I love the community that's built around it. So, I think I'm gonna say Pathfinder.
Devin: Cool. I mean, it's perfectly viable. It's, it's on D&D, so. Well, awesome. Thank you so much for your time today. I mean, I think it's a, it's a really interesting space. It's probably not looked into a, a lot, which, you know, as you mentioned, and you know, as we get into the intersection of UGC and RPGs in general and, and sort of building off IP, I think this is hopefully a topical thing for people to really start going, wait, maybe we're not paying enough attention to that space.
So hopefully, uh, people can come check out your guys' games as well. I think fantastic, uh, products that you guys put out and as you, you're trying to build into the future, not just the past, but still games that hopefully could be played for 30-plus years. So, thanks again for, for coming, you know, stopping in and, and chatting.
Thanks to the listeners as well for hopefully checking out this whole thing and checking out these products and, and all kinds of great games out there. And hey, go build the next one, so, so we can all play it as well and enjoy that. But, till the next time, oh, you guys, have a great one.
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