To kick off the new year, host Alexandra Takei, Director at Ruckus Games, interviews Songyee Yoon, former President and Chief Strategy Officer of NCSoft and now founding partner at PVP Ventures, which recently raised a $100M fund to invest in AI startups.

They explore NCSoft’s transformation from its early days to a global gaming powerhouse, focusing on strategic pivots like transitioning from subscription models to free-to-play, embracing mobile gaming, and forging key partnerships with Tencent and others. Songyee shares her perspective on Korean gaming culture, from the role of PC cafés to transmedia collaborations, and how they shaped NCSoft’s growth. She discusses lessons learned from her tenure, including navigating challenges in organizational change and adapting to technological shifts.

The episode also dives into broader trends like casualization, Korea’s bullish stance on blockchain, and the global influence of Korean entertainment on gaming. Songyee closes by sharing her predictions for 2025, NCSoft’s future, and opportunities in Korea’s gaming market, while offering insights on applying her experience to venture capital. This episode is a must-listen for those interested in strategy, innovation, and the Korean gaming industry!

We’d also like to thank Reforged Labs for making this episode possible. This YC startup automates the traditionally costly and time-consuming ad production process, delivering high-quality, cost-effective video ads in under 24 hours – and it’s all powered by a proprietary AI engine trained on thousands of successful game ads. Learn more: https://reforgedlabs.com/?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=naavik_promo&utm_id=naavik+promo&utm_term=newsletter&utm_content=october30.

This transcript is machine-generated, and we apologize for any errors.

Alex: What's up, everyone? And welcome to the Naavik Gaming Podcast. I'm your host, Alex. And this is the interview and insight segment.

This is our debut show of our 2025 slate. And I am super excited for everything we have in store for the audience this year. And so with that, let's go. So founded in 1997 in Seoul, Korea, NCSoft initially focused on software development before shifting its focus to online gaming, a decision that many of us would know will shape its legacy.

In 1998, the company launched Lineage, a title that most would consider to be an evergreen mega franchise. At its peak, Lineage boasted over 3 million online subscribers and generated over 5 billion in gross revenue across its seven iterations. Among these, Lineage 2 and Lineage M probably stand out as the most iconic entries.

In 2003, NCSoft went public, marking a significant milestone in growth, and two years later, the company achieved widespread acclaim with the launch of Guild Wars. However, in 2009, the company discontinued Tabula Rasa, and by 2017, NCSoft began a strategic pivot towards mobile gaming, aligning with the industry's ever evolving landscape.

Some notable business-related events in recent, recent years include in 2021, they launched a K pop platform in 2022. The Saudi public investment fund took a large stake in the company. And today, like many other players in the gaming industry, NC soft is facing tough competition, rising development costs, and a market that keeps expanding and diversifying.

But even with these challenges, NCSoft remains a major player in Korean gaming, standing alongside names like Nexon, Krafton, Pearl Abyss, Kakao, and Netmarble. So what can we learn from NCSoft's long history in the gaming world and where they might be headed next? So my guest is Songyee Yoon, currently the founding and managing partner of PVP Partners, a VC firm with a mission to support AI native companies.

Songyee knows the Korean gaming scene inside and out. Before starting PVP in 2024, she spent 15 years at NCSoft, where she was the president and chief strategy officer. She joined the company in 2008 and played a key role in its growth and strategy during a transformative period for the gaming industry.

Songyee has been recognized by the Wall Street Journal as one of 50s women's to watch in business and also is a World Economic Forum Young Global Leader. She's also the author of Push Play, a book that celebrates the idea of play as an essential part of life, which is something that I, of course, really resonate with.

And I'm super excited and honored to bring her on our show today. There's none better, I think, to discuss the history of NCSoft and trends in Korean gaming. Welcome.

Songyee: Thank you. Thank you so much for having me today.

Alex: Awesome. Yeah. So everyone, you know, today we'll be spending some time talking about the history and lessons we can learn from NC soft, as well as also what can one can learn when they shift their career from a publicly traded company to the VC side.

But Songyee, I gave you a bit of an intro, but I'd love for you to share the story from your perspective, how did you stumble upon the role at NCSoft? Where are you originally from and why do you like games?

Songyee: Yeah, that's a really great question. So my, I grew up in South Korea. I, my, my major is engineering.

I wanted, I always wanted to be a good engineer, so I did my PhD at MIT. Like, back then it was very, very rare. Like I studied artificial intelligence. Since then I used AI as kind of my tool and pillar for all my business career, but then, my passion lies not just in like a technology, but also like art.

And so I thought that gaming is a such an interesting intersection between art, technology, and business and business kind of, requires understanding customers and, and like human psychology. So I, it, I mean, game itself is a kind of sets of both. Fascinating endeavor not just as a gamer, but like from the, like a business perspective as well.

So I'm really excited to join NCSoft when that opportunity was presented. And it was really a wonderful ride.

Alex: Awesome. Yeah, definitely could not agree more with the, with the triangulation between art business and technology. I think it definitely is exactly that. All right. So you joined NCSoft at this very formative period.

It sounds like you had background being an engineer, and this role at NCSoft kind of, you know, you, you wander into it, right? We're gonna talk a little bit about your tenure there. You joined in 2008, which is a very transformative time for, for gaming. So, set the stage for us. You join NCSoft, it's 2008.

What's happening in in the industry and how is NCSoft positioned?

Songyee: Right. I mean, I think it's a gaming, I mean gaming was a very new thing. So, I mean, when NCSOFT started, there were not many 3d gaming companies. So back then I, when I was in college, I mean, I don't know whether we played like a.

Games like Doom on Unix Terminal and everything was in text. So we had all these commands in like a text. And, but it was really fun because it's connected. It's kind of based on internet. And you could play with Summer, like Summer on Earth. Not necessarily in the same country. So, that joy and experience inspired founders at NCSoft.

What if we can just kind of create 3D graphical interface to enable that interaction and make it more immersive and interesting? I think that's a kind of that's a motivation behind how NCSOFT started, starting with online 3D game, multi MMORPG game, game company. But then, because there are not so much, there, there is, there were not so many products, like at games and the marketplace, as we see today, the good content itself was the kind of selling so much, and there's a lot of interest and demand from the user side.

So this is perspective. There was not, there's no need to be very much a sophisticated. So from the very, from the launch of the company that, that we had only won this model was all subscription and the subs and even the price of the subscription was exactly the same for all the games. So in 2008 was like, we launched, I which was kind of the, the like a second ip from the departing from lineage.

And we, and there was a kind of, I joined and when we talked about like, why should we keep the same, price for subscriptions, different, different, uh, it's a different type. We are targeting different audience. It's a different game. And we also talked about, uh, what about like micro transactions?

What, why can't we sell this like a virtual product? So the first thing we sold was like a kind of t shirt with some kind of XP is associated with it. And that was, I mean, today it looks kind of such a, such a common idea and everyone's doing it. But back then it was like a, such a novel idea. And people are like, why would people buy a t shirt?

Like, he's like, uh, so that was a kind of conversation that we were having back then. But I mean, like the rest of the rest is history.

Alex: Interesting. Yeah. I think that that is it really does set the scene, you know, back then in 2008 when, you know, you have one business model, the, the, there's not too many products quite yet.

You're launching a new title. You're even thinking about, you know, something that we would consider to be very common, like a CPG item being something super, super special. And I think like, you know, you were talking about like, that's the way the company was thinking at the time. And so I would love for you to tell me a little bit about the framework that from which you saw the strategy of NCSoft being in, right?

Like, how did you build the strategic org to think In that manner, to think about pricing, to think about the different types of business pillars that you could potentially have and bring into the fold, you know, how did you guys actually like set up that org in order to, you know, evolve NCSoft's business over time?

Songyee: Yeah, I mean, I think it's, it all came from the market. It came from the customers. So I think it's when we, when we had like very small number of products and we had a very homogenous group of players. Yeah. It was, it was very simple. Like we kind of serve and like with their best with their need and interest, best of our ability.

But then, as a, as a public company, we have to keep growing. That's kind of, we reach broader audience and quickly we realized that the desire for players play games. It's quite, quite diverse. So like, there is, there are a certain number of, a certain kind of set of players who are really kind of go into deep into the content and clear all the quests out there available and progress as quickly as possible and become the, like a, strongest person or like a leader of the guild of the server.

That, that seems like kind of a very typical player archetype, but there are other players just kind of find the joy in like wandering around the beautiful 3D world, or like what kind of solving problems and quizzes and like, and also like a kind of collecting items is craft something that's that's new.

So we wanted to kind of provide a new perspective as present environment to be fun and engaging for all those people. So then, so that we can welcome more users and even for the players with one specific play type, they can, it's always more fun to have other users around and that's kind of nature of the, the MMORPG games.

So like for other different type of users, we need, we had to have like different type of business models or business, the kind of way of entering into the world. Because they, they're coming level of commitment and they're like, it was, was quite different, but that's why we kind of gradually diversified business models and offering and find a different channels to reach out to those customers and make that kind of MMO environment more fertile.

And, engaging in like, it's like a real world to have like a find the different type of players and friends and, uh, like partners.

Alex: Okay. So it sounds like a lot of that was very reactive. You know, some people started showing up to NC soft schemes and you were like, Oh, player B is nothing like player a, how can we serve player be better versus it being proactively driven where there might have been someone specifically at the company that was like mobile will be the future or something like that.

Songyee: How did, Okay. I think it's a combination. I think it's a combination in, in a, like in a, in a business setting, we don't want to make a decision in a vacuum, right? So like we do have some hypothesis, like kind of when we kind of, when we were surprised, like ourselves with like the huge demand and like for, for the T-shirt, right?

So I think it's a, it's, it's a combination of our recognition of the, like, need to grow and diversify our user base. And also just kind of having more users that kind of, recognizing different plague to parents. So I think it's a come, I mean, I think it's, it's both, side is very pertinent, and another thing that we were surprised is kind of again, today it seems normal, but like we had a kind of a, like a collaborated promotion with one of the cup noodle companies back then.

That was a kind of first ever collaboration. And because, I mean, that was kind of partly was written by hypothesis that, oh yeah, like a lot of our gamers, like love having cup noodle, like while playing cause it's a kind of late night snack. So why don't we have a coupon on top of the kind of a lead of the cup noodle so that they can have something that they can, uh exchange with an interesting item in game.

And, that was, that was very well received. And to our surprise and the noodle company surprise, because it's not, you can kind of keep it for quite a long time because it's like people bought like a lot more like then they can, they can consume like during that, during that period. So like there's a 10 X more like demand that they have to quickly make more lids with that, with that code that they think.

Exchanged into the item in, in our game. So like, we learned, Oh yeah, there it's something that there is a demand and like actually players welcome. And all those kind of first steps was a very interesting experiments for us that gave us the ground to be more kind of a basis to be more creative and come up with different type of business models and which a broader audience.

Alex: Yeah, that that example is fantastic. And I think that's it's I'm so glad that you brought that up because something that we're going to talk about later today is some, you know, trends and culture in the Korean gaming market. , and it's so funny that you mentioned this example of the cup of noodles, which to me, relates to today's strategy of like transmedia and cross pollination.

And here we are back in 2008 2009 2010. Having already done that in Korea. Yeah. Right. And I remember from like, you know, like Final Fantasy 15, I had, I could wear a couple of noodles hat on my head, and that sort of stuff has been more intrinsic. And so we'll, we'll, we'll table that transmedia kind of conversation for in a couple minutes.

But I think that that's, that's interesting that it's, you know, it's, it's a model bi directional, you know, you, you're assigned to see what your customers are doing. And then you have a bunch of people inside the organization that are thinking about how to influence strategic direction and thinking about which company.

Which direction to push the company in? And when we talked before, you actually mentioned that there were some challenges sometimes in bringing rigor and like that kind of modern tactics to a business like NC soft. Can you tell our audience a little bit about how you landed that plane? Because it's, you know, it sounds like, you know, a lot of successful things happened.

Songyee: I mean, I think it's a, it was a very interesting experience for me personally, because, , I joined when I joined the company that was still very early days. So most of the employees and especially that like a leadership group were part of the founding team, right? Like kind of, it was, they were there like from day one.

So I joined, it is still like a, it's kind of very early stage and like a, you know, A lot of, most of them are like gamers and developers and doesn't have much of the business, I mean, it needs for business. Cause I mean, that was kind of the games were like a selling itself, but like we're talking about growth and like talking about the shareholders cause as, as a public company.

So, there are like some, some things that, from personally joined like afterwards it looked very obvious things like, oh, royalty programs, right? I mean, like kind of a tiered programs where those, like, depending on how much time you spend, like a, how, like how strong, kind of connection with other, other players that you have within a game or like kind of using this kind of data science, like, uh,, to me, like, because of a background in architectural intelligence, it was very kind of, it was a natural, like we have so much data, all the activities are done on online, so we can already kind of predict if a player is not engaged.

Or I could, there is a kind of a, we could kind of predicted probability with Chan, or you can just kind of approach those players and offer what, what can be more engaging for them. So then you can, like, the gifts stay longer. So, we just kind of work on all it, let's kind of launch all this ideas because that's so commonsensical.

But then, what I was kind of faced with, I kind of strong, pushback. And because they said, Oh, like you're saying it because you don't know gaming industry. You're saying it because like you're new to gaming. So it took, I mean, I think it's, even though it looked very obvious, it, we had to like launch, roll it out, like step by, like step in the, in the small steps to have that, Kind of acceptance within the organization, but like eventually we at NC soft became the first gaming company with a, with a large AI organization, composed of like algorithm developers and like data scientists, et cetera, but, kind of beginning was not, was not always easy.

It's like, had a lot of conversations and persuasions and like trying out and we'll, we built a kind of from our, the baby steps.

Alex: I see. I see. Yeah. And I was, I think one of the questions was whether or not you think that that was a gaming thing or potentially also, you know, a big, big company or, or, or culture, right, of the habituated nature of it being, this is the way that games are done and trying to shift a strategy and steer the boat in a different, in a different manner, which was why I was asking so much about kind of like how you structured the strategy work, right? Because it sounds like there could have been some challenges in moving a big company.

Like NCSoft in a different direction, right?

Songyee: Right. Yeah. Yeah.

Alex: Okay. So we talked a little bit about like what was going on NC soft, um, at the time when you were there and some of the things that you help pilot and work through. I want to ask about some key moments of change during your time at the company.

Pivotal like three pivotal shifts and what prompted them and how they reshape the company's trajectory over that, that period of time. So if you kind of had to say like NC soft chapter one, chapter two and chapter three, what are the shifts and were any of them technological, like where the technological shifts that prompted them?

Songyee: Yeah, I think it's a first shift is what we've been talking about this kind of transitioning business model from like a, like a one in one tier, like subscription model to, uh, variety of models, that really changed. How we develop the games and how we kind of design like a leveling system because like a final leveling system when you, it is the experience has to be different if it's, sold as a kind of subscription game versus like a free to play game.

So I think that's also affected our, a lot of our design decisions and internally, I think that was a kind of a dead tube, a lot of the intentional kind of change and guidance to, to do. I think second shift is probably that we had a first partnership with Tencent because that meant back then, like China was kind of growing as a kind of a market.

We tried to open an office in China, but we kind of quickly realized that, uh, there's a lot of uncertainty with, like a policy decisions. And what government wants to do, like Chinese government wants to do with like a gaming companies. So we said that it's not a good idea to like do everything by ourselves.

Cause I mean, there are a lot of uncertainties. So we kind of decided to like a partner with Tencent and they started publishing our game from I've played a soul, in, in China. And I think that was a, one of the first, like a real major. Partnership like external to our company and that was that caused another challenge because I mean like every everything was done like internally, the time level of communication and frequencies are so easy.

It's like we don't really have. We don't, like, there's no, like, not much need to have a structured plan, like longer term plan with a kind of a very articulated, like deliverables and, and having that kind of cadence of communication with that granular detail. And that's a kind of new task, right? I mean, it was, we didn't have to do it.

And that also kind of, cause some kind of change it challenges and, and, and we had to adapt to, to that. So now we have like multiple partners and I think that was a kind of big learning, a kind of one of the stick, stick learning card. I think finally, I think probably, for most people, most companies, I think for, I mean, companies that has been around as long as, as a soft, one of the biggest challenge was the shift into the mobile platform.

And we started as 100 percent PC based company. So up until like 2015-2016, I mean, we had a, like a, when mobile, like a smartphone was introduced, but like a smaller kind of content, the games to have, you know, To just kind of test out and understand what the, what this new platform was like, how we can interact with the customers and et cetera, but then, like 2015-16 was a kind of a year that it was, we were kind of faced with existential risk.

Because if you don't really address this like a mobile game, mobile market, our revenue can be like substantially reduced because it was very clear that like our target audience and gamers are spending a lot more time on mobile. They're not like, they don't even update, upgrade like their PCs. And I think it's a lot of people who are in the PC ecosystem, I think probably face a similar challenge.

So it was a, it was a huge challenge because I mean, what the gaze IP that was successful on PC, and, or not, we're not necessarily successful on mobile and especially our games was a kind of, it's a larger scale MMO games, sometimes there are like a hundred people like raid. And like, there are like a hundred people on the screen.

It was, it was kind of a big question, right? Can we have this, it's your like. Large scale rate on, on a, like a, a smartphone screen, and still provide that, kind of immersive experience and interactive experience and let, and, and have a UI that lets players understand what's going on and, and stay engaged.

Hmm. That was a big challenge and it was like a business model was different. And we don't have a direct con contact with our customers, whereas in PC we kind of, we know like who's there, like who they are. They could give a direct, uh. direct contact, but we always had to go through platform companies in the case of, mobile.

So like, like, that's a, like a lot of different challenges, not just about, content development and the game design, but like a business models and how we market, how we kind of communicate with our users. So that, but then I think about it was not, it was not easy. We made several missteps and some of the games that we had to drop, but eventually we got to the point like more than half of the revenue are coming from mobile platform.

So now that's kind of, that's how revenue competition looks like today.

Alex: Yeah. Okay. So three big pivotal moments. The first is like you said, like kind of leveling up like basic business tactics. Um, thinking about the business strategically thinking about customer customer value proposition and maybe perhaps also, I guess one could college is being more product focused.

The second shift is partnerships abroad. And the third shift is, you know, in 2015, you make that decision 2015 2016 to move lineage onto mobile platforms, you know, take an I. P. Is winning on PC and seeing whether or not you could do all those things that you said to adapt it to a mobile platform. , you told me a little bit about what was going on the company in that in that time, and I was, uh, this was one of the specific moments in NC softs history that I was going to ask you about, but you've already addressed it, , But I also want to go to the to the partner side as well.

 If I got my research correct, I think in 2012, um, you know, you said that you mentioned you did a partnership with Tencent, but, , there was also an internal, , sorry, inter Korea partnership, where Nexon acquired about a 15 percent stake in NCSoft with the goal to combine NCSoft's IP With Nexon's expertise to administer free to play, likely in preparation for a lot of the mobile activity that you were just mentioning, because the business model is different, but this partnership only lasts a couple of years.

So what lessons did you learn from this? And, and what do you think maybe others should learn from this? Aand it's subs. And then also for the audience, there was a reversal of this partnership as well. So tell me a little bit about the lessons there and potentially maybe like what you guys think you should have done in hindsight.

Songyee: I think it's a partner who's like a marriage, right? Like you should have a like a You should talk the eye to eye and I think it's, there is a kind of difference in understanding like what is the objective of this union and, or the set of values. And I think there is a big gap, then it's hard to last.

So I think it's, I mean, just like in any, any partnership, I think it's very important to have that upfront conversations, even if that's, that's Kind of tough to bring up as like we try to cover as much as possible. Like when things go well, things doesn't go well. And then what is kind of the, how are we going to make decisions?

And like, we can, as I say, just because of your friends, like, Oh yeah, we'll be able to, we'll be able to figure out. So I think that's, in any partnership, I think that's the same. Some goes well, some doesn't, , and I think that was the time that NCSoft was trying because I mean, there's like so much, I mean, they get, , now we can talk about very peacefully, but like, it was, it was a significant threat to most of the companies who started in like a PC platform were trying to do everything that was possible, like this, do that and see what, what happens.

Because, it's not just about, it's not just about, setting the right strategic direction. It's also about execution and execution is like, it, it can, there's always like a, when, when you are executing a strategy with this, like a very large organization, there are a lot of uncertainty is like, because even if you come up with like a right, a business, ike a organization design, you kind of put the right leaders in place, but you never know how quickly the whole organization and everyone at every level will be aligned and follow and kind of be transformed just to kind of follow through that execution at the level of speed and like and polish that we need.

To really win this market in the global marketplace. So, so I think that's that's why we had to kind of assume that there are some uncertainties and there are probability of like not like a succeeding. If we had like a right direction and strategy. I think there, there are like a lot of things that we were trying out.

And I think that was kind of one of the. One of the things that we tried.

Alex: I see. Yeah. And I think you said something interesting in there, which I thought was, which was that, obviously, you don't just go into a deal because you are friends, of course, you should probably have those hard conversations, just like a marriage.

But many of the Korean gaming companies are headquartered actually in Seongnam, which is slightly South of Seoul, and they're practically physically adjacent to one another. So I'm curious, you know, given that you've been there, right. In America, I don't think that we. Sometimes we wouldn't put a headquarters of major conglomerates right next to one another because we feel this strong sense of competition.

Like, there's no Google headquarters that's right next to Apple, and so, I would, and you know, you said like you and Nexon, you were friends. And so what's kind of like the nature of like collectivism versus competition between some of the big Korean gaming companies, you know? And maybe what can the West learn from that in a positive way or in things that you think that we should be wary of?

Songyee: I mean, I think it's every country is different. I think Korea is very unique at like people often forget that because it's kind of always punching above its weight in terms of a kind of influence of a K pop and like all this content, gaming businesses, but it's a, it's a quite small company, country.

It's like a smaller than California. I mean, it's like a, like total, like a population is, Some of that, like a 50 million, it's, it's a small, small country. Yeah. So like and, so like that, that's one thing. So and there are like, just not in, if you're in Silicon Valley, probably see people from like all over the world and like, who have a different background and different, different schooling and et cetera, but because it's such a small country and if you're interested in like certain subject and subject matter it's as you, as you grow up, we kind of get to know them already, like high school, like college, because it's, it's like, it's a degree of separation is very long.

That's why I like a lot of the, most of the founders of those gaming companies went to like similar, same, like we all knew them, like, Since our college days, like we, we know like, like a friends and friends, like, so, so I think that's, that's kind of one difference between the US, kind of the, the startup scene versus the gaming market, gaming industry in Korea.

It looks like you mentioned the Songnam and Pangyo, I think that the, uh, I think it's, uh, the provincial, provincial government recognized the importance of, like, supporting gaming industry as a strategic growth area. So they offered the land and helped with building, uh, like headquarter buildings and they, so the government supported.

So like, that was a, such a good incentive for everyone to move down there. So that's why a lot of the companies ended up getting there, having their headquarters, and I think it was very interesting cause I mean, like you get to. meet others from other country at other companies at like a restaurant over lunch, you can, and it's, it's just kind of, like a block walk away to other gaming companies.

But there is a, like a lot of, there's a kind of lot of like a fluidity and like a synergy and conversations and learning from each other, while there is kind of very friendly competitions. So I think it's a, it's a very unique culture.

Alex: Yeah, it definitely sounds like a unique environment.

Right? I think a lot of the American gaming companies are very you know, there's like security around the outside. Like no one can see what Diablo was doing ever. Um, we keep this stuff very like close to the chest and so I think that obviously proximity, right? And you're talking about the size of the country.

They're literally being Yeah. Less land in Korea. And there's also an incentive by the government to move to this specific land and that kind of created that interesting, you know, friendly competition and dynamism between some of the companies. And so this is kind of leading into like one of our next topics, which is about trends and culture kind of in the Korean game market.

And in, you know, you talked about in 2016, you guys making the shift to mobile, but in 2020, you also have a big push into just broader entertainment. And I want to spend some time talking about those things because you also mentioned, you know, Korea is somewhat punching above its weight in terms of influence with, you know, K pop and all those types of things for being as small of a country that it is.

And so maybe we'll start with that, right? There has been a huge influx of korean influence into the west with things like k dramas and bts and blackpink and all the things right? How important do you think k pop is to gaming right? And and how did that influence what you guys did at NCSoft when you bought the k pop a k pop platform?

Songyee: So I think it's, I mean, we can talk about it from many different aspects. Like oftentimes, you know, I think there is a kind of very famous quote, like who is a competition for iPhone? Like many, many years ago. And they say, Oh, like a real competition is Nike. Because like, like people either go out and run or like kind of spend time on like phone.

I think that was just like that. I think it's the competition to gaming is not just, Not. Not just another gaming, it's anything that can really engage or like a grab attention from our audience kind of through the very entertaining content. So I don't think that, there is, it's too different that like a gaming content and, and, and overall entertainment market, it's, they're trying to really come up with way of providing that type of like engaging, entertaining experience.

Mike. like short term short form videos is another, like they are not, they don't say there are games, but like there is clearly taking the gamers attention away and like, right. So I think that's a, I think that's kind of important for us to understand, like, What, what's data of this competition, like why today's players and today's audience prefer spend time more on this versus that.

So, I think from that, like a, continuity of the spectrum, I think it's always helpful to have understanding in like an adjacent industries and kind of alternatives for our, for our audience. That's one thing. And I think from the, another thing that's interesting about gaming is I always think the gaming and gaming industry is a petri dish for all this new innovations and technology.

So, that's because, what's at stake is, just client crash. Like, I mean, like if you, like 10 years ago, 15 years ago, if you apply AI to driverless cars, what's at stake is human life. Like you have to very, very careful and have like a lot of the safety measure in place before applying it to like larger audience.

Whereas in gaming, I think we can apply innovative, like new, technology, even if it's not like too mature because, one, because it kind of, what's the stick is a kind of clan crash. Like we can just kind of restart, reboot the client. But at the same time, our audience are early adopters, they have to enjoy, and they actually like for us to kind of try out new things.

They appreciate that our effort to incorporate new innovation in our content, because that's part of the fun. Like it as part of FUD to be early adopter. It's a part of the FUD to kind of explore what's, what's novel and what has not been around for a very long time. So, in that, in that sense, like a lot of the technology is, like, like animation tools, like game engines, like a cloud, even Kubernetes, there was like an ever, like a, all of those things were, adopted in ga polished and, and when o into other industries mm-hmm

One of the most, industries, kind of proximity to gaming is an entertainment movie and animation. So there's a lot of interchange of like a technology and talent. Like if you go to like Vancouver, a lot of the game artists are there. They, I, they can either work on a movie project or they can work on a game project.

So there's a lot of a synergy in creating today's content and entertainment. When we have that kind of strong foundation and platform. So I think that's a, all those things kind of led us into expanding and using our technology to engage and like communicate our users and, our players with a different meeting and that's entertainment, that's kind of K pop and that's different type of platform.

Alex: Interesting. Okay. So for you guys, again, it's like, K pop is just, you know, think of thinking of yourself as an entertainment company. That's where K pop fits into the fold versus thinking of yourselves as a gaming company. And so there's, I feel like we could definitely go down the K pop channel for a very long time, but I've got so many other questions about some of the trends that are going on in the Korean gaming market.

And the first is actually primarily That Korea is known for being a very hardcore player base, right? An audience that focuses on skill and competition, probably more than a lot of others. but in the West right now, there's, I think, an ongoing trend towards casualization, cozy games, auto battlers, right?

Is this trend happening in Korea? And if not, why do you think that Korea is maybe going in a maybe asymmetric from maybe what the West is doing in terms of its preference for games?

Songyee: I mean, I think that's a, that's a very interesting question. I think it's, I mean, that's a kind of, I think a lot gets also, related with a kind of entry into the gaming industry, because one of the most successful games early on were not casual gaming companies.

They were like hardcore MMR PC gaming companies like NCSOFT, right? So I think that when we think about gamers, that's kind of how it started. So like, we have a good foundation. Of the gamers who are who know how to play and who enjoy playing this hardcore games. And on top of that, we had a very strong culture of PC cafes, uh, when the broadband was first introduced, , because there's a lot of demand for high, high speed network computers and, , for Korea being such a kind of high density.

And, again, an environment, it made sense to have like a PC cafes in every corner of the, of the town, just like a Starbucks and people, not only kind of did, whatever was needed to be done internet, but they also play the games and I don't know whether if you have played a game in PC cafe, It's, it's really fun.

I mean, it's very, very different from like playing in your room by yourself. Even if it's a mobile, like online game, you can just yell at your friend, like right next, look at this kind of hand wave. And it's, it's, it's a, quite a different experience.

And then because they know, like they have experienced what it is like there is a lot of like a demand for that type of games, but I think it's also but then it's like, every country, I think at the beginning of the, the industry and how it happened to, and there is difference, like that's why the original set of the the kind of the players are a little different, but I think it's with a more global kind of interconnectivity and, and collaboration.

It's, it's getting similar to each other. So I think that there are a lot more diverse type of players in career market. There are a lot of casual players or female players, and they, they like, kind of, uh, look for different type of games. So like now they're very successful casual game developers and like, and, and the content and, yeah, that's, that's also being diversified.

Alex: I see. Okay, so you think that there is a general trend that it may not be as severe as it is in the West, but you think that there's a new form of gamer arising in Korea, , one that might be more preferential towards casualization, and you think that some Korean gaming companies are moving to kind of satisfy that need.

Okay, so there's that trend about casualization and genres, etc. Another thing that I think has been really, really interesting and fascinating to watch is why the Korean gaming market is more bullish on blockchain and blockchain games than the West, what is the thesis and why is there a patience to play this very long game?

Songyee: On blockchain, I mean, I think it's that is I don't think that's it's just a gaming trend. I think it's a blockchain trend. I think it's a blockchain trend. I think Korea is a has a culture and interesting kind of tolerance to risk, so to speak. Hmm. So I think that's it's a little different.

So it has been always the case. It was the first country, I mean, long before blockchain. It was the first country to sell and buy big appliances like, like a washing machine and like a refrigerator install payment. So it was like a before credit card, credit card market was like flourished. So I think it's, it's a, it's a, it's kind of a, in, in kind of, I think it's a, just, that's, that's kind of embedded in cultures, I think a blockchain and like crypto kind of resonate with that type of interest and willingness.

Well, that's so like a, they're not necessarily gamers. I think those who are interested in blockchain. And I think, as a part of utilizing, finding utility in blockchain, they're like a combined with the game.

Alex: I see. Okay, well I've watched enough K dramas to know there's always like one character with like a really big gambling addiction.

So I'm presuming that this is maybe where it's coming from. But I thought that that's

Songyee: I didn't say gambling, but like it's just kind of…

Alex: Yeah, risk. Risk is the better, is the, is the, is the finance word for it. But okay, interesting. Um, And then, you know, I kind of want to bring us back to, one of the questions that we talked about earlier, right, which was, you know, your, you did this partnership with Cup of Noodles very early in NCSoft's inception, right?

How does KR, or Korea, sorry, think about the transmedia trend and the buzzword that's been going on the West, you know? You know, new novel, or, you know, potentially I could see one saying, Oh, the West has just kind of been behind the ball. We've been doing this this whole time or do you think that there's anything different about the way that transmedia is occurring in the, in the U S right now?

You know, in a collaboration between an uncharted movie and an uncharted game. How do you guys see that this awakening to transmedia that's happening in the West?

Songyee: So yeah, I think it's very interesting trend, but I think it's, again, I think it's, because the target audiences that there's so much overlap, I think it's just very natural.

Right. Cause I mean, I'm not, I'm not sure whether you're aware. The, the reason I was introduced to NZ Salt and the game was because of the transmedia collaboration. Mm-hmm. Um, and back then, when, when we launched Uhlin two, so it was like a very, very, like early 2000, we launched the person who was promoting the line two was the singer Ray, and then the, like, rain is like kind of the, like one of the, the first artist from, produced by JYP.

He was a very big kind of, uh, uh, singer just like Psy back then. And he was the one who was promoting, Lili's 2 costume into one of the heroes of the game. So that's, to me, that's kind of transmedia collaboration because like, like as a singer and artist showed up in gaming and that kind of generates different type of, and a fan following and engagement, another kind of a fun for like interacting while with the, with the rain.

And I think that has been a very natural, adoption in a Korean industry overall, like when they, , like, I don't want to like dig myself here again, but like, we are launching, I don't know whether you remember 3G, like when we launched 3G, it was a kind of time we were very excited. Oh, like finally we can see images on like a phone, like we can probably watch movie, like on a phone. And like when, when the 3G was launched, it was one of the J by JYP's artists again, that, that did a promotion. That kind of cross genre collaboration with those like, with artists from, different, different domain has been always there. And one of the most successful, like, Netflix shows in Korea are based on all the psycho webtoons. And those are webtoon stories, uh, are truth and chosen based on their popularity that those story and like those characters and they're like a setting and all of that inspire writers for games as well.

So like, there's a lot of like interplay between those like different segments of an entertainment. And I think they kind of has a kind of synergistic relation with each other.

Alex: Hmm. Okay. Yeah. So it sounds like from your guys's perspective, this was something that was already embedded into the culture, right?

This intrinsic partnership between music and film and TV and games. And it was just always living and breathing. And so I think the other thing for the examination that you might make of the West is that we're behind. And that you guys had discovered this a long time ago and found it to be very, very, I guess, Yeah.

Financially beneficial and also great for the popularity of the franchise and the title. So, okay, and then there's one more question and I think like that's around, you know, the direction of, of, of mobile, right? Like you say, Korea embracing mobile earlier than a lot of others, right? Mobile penetration in Asia is, you know, bigger than, you know, It is in the West.

It's probably one of the most significant gaming platform at this point in time. And mobile right now is going through a bit of a reckoning, right? With ATT and all of the lack of the identifiers, et cetera. Do you think this is true in Korea as well, right? I'm under the impression that there's also a myriad of different storefronts.

One store and things like that, that you may not be such, so subjugated to what's happening in Korea between on Google and Apple and those in those, in those spheres of business. What is it looking like in mobile for Korea right now?

Songyee: I think it's a, I mean, like it's mobile. It's like one of the reason why the penetration was so high was because a massive rollout of the broadband, like and also the kind of Internet.

So, already like early 2000 people had connectivity, underground and subway, like there isn't like a, no, like, kind of absence of the, of the network and anywhere. So I think that's because it's a, so a kind of, it was so easy to connect and it was kind of, you, it provides a very reliable connection.

That's why people, the adoption was higher because it was a reliable platform that I could just, kind of, carry it, without worrying about ever losing the connection. And I think that's, that really helped with, like higher penetration and an efficient adoption of the, of the, of working on platform.

It's only natural that like once you spend so much time and like one platform, you like, kind of, going to you know, Doing it for, not just for communication, not just for like productivity work, also for like entertainment and other things. So like that, that, that enabled the flourishing of the mobile games, and higher kind of level of development.

But I think it, but in the, like a, in the broader sense, I think I live in the real, good innovation for, for all of us, that's kind of beneficial for, for not just. That's just a kind of players and customers, but also like, businesses come from like fair competition. And I think it's, if there is a structure that's, that's unfair.

I mean, they get it. There is a kind of a artificially providing some kind of a unfair advantage. And if there is like a way to provide similar utility and a more like more user friendly and cost effectively. And I think that's always an attempt like someone is working on finding the solution. So I think it's a Yeah.

If we see that, say that kind of a unnatural equilibrium, I think we'll just kind of get to the point that there is a competition and there is openness and that's, that's because that's good for, for all of us involved. So it's just, but momentarily at like a one, one point in time, there could be some kind of a local minimum, but I think eventually we'll just kind of get to the, get to the global minimum, which is the best for, for the industry.

So I think we're kind of, we, I mean, I think it could be, we may not reach that yet, like there is a lot of, there could be a lot of changes and I think we always should be prepared for that.

Alex: Hmm. Okay. So in other words, I think you, you basically see there being a mobile rebound similar to there, there eventually will be a mobile rebound.

Basically interesting. Okay. So before we move to, because we're, we're running up, uh, to the end of our episode here before we move to our conclusion, where I'm going to ask you a bit about your, since you are the kickoff episode of 2025, some predictions for the 2025 global gaming market.

You know, you spent this whole, this whole 15 year period of your life at NC soft. And now you're moving it to the venture capital side. How are you taking everything you've learned at NC soft and applying it to venture? You know, if you had to say, like, these are your top three lessons that you've learned from your time at NC soft and they're applying it to venture capital.

What are those top three things?

Songyee: That's a very great, great question. So like, our thesis is very simple. Like if you look at, I mean, like we've been around, I got the latest revolution is really a digital transformation, right? So like a lot of, there is a, there has been a lot of investment that went into it, a lot of companies spent, especially the incumbents for like digital transformation. But, If you look at top 10 NASDAQ companies, more than half of them are digital native companies who started after broadband, after introduction, the digital technology. I think similar thing is happening today that a lot of companies starting today are AI native companies.

So now they have, they have access to all this different tech stack, resources, compute, and a talent who understands, AI needed, AI, technology, data science, inside and out. So they can build companies that, We couldn't do 10 years ago, more efficiently, different tech stack with a kind of a better, service offerings, et cetera.

So our PVP, our venture fund is like a, is a, is investing in those AI native companies that poised to be winners over the next decades. We're going to be shaping, uh, the business landscape and how we do things. And I think it's a, it's a same, it's a similar thing is applied to gaming, it's entertainment.

I think gaming is a kind of evolving concept. Like in back, like in like many, many decades ago, gaming was kind of board game. And like, it was very, very strict kind of tone based game. It's like a, and now we have like a different type of job, like, which we, we, we say that gaming as a kind of one bucket, but we all know it's like, it's so many different things.

It could be A-M-M-R-P-G, it could be community game, it's collection, card collection game. Like, it's all very different. And I think that the, the integration and of this new technology allow us to develop new type of fund. And novelty that users will be really excited about that's different from what we have seen.

And that's a kind of, I mean, that's a nature of like, that's, that's kind of a challenge and fun of being in game industry. We don't want to keep creating same thing over and over again with under the same name and just kind of a different cosmetic, makeup. I think we want to be very creative and we want to use the new, the Technology and, and, and tools available today and create something that's inspiring to the next generation of players.

And we do have new type of tools that we didn't have before. It's an opportunity for the gaming companies to come up with new type of content. It's inspiring and more engaging that, that's kind of a that's why it's very exciting time.

Alex: All right. Very nice. Okay. So I have to ask you, about your 2025 predictions, and so the first question is what is your prediction for the 2025 global gaming market? The second question is, what do you think specifically is the opportunity 2025? And the third question is where do you specifically see NCSoft going in 2025?

Songyee: I mean, I, I don't have a, like a crystal ball. Like, I'm not going to say

Alex: That’s why it's a prediction. Yeah.

Songyee: Well, I think, as I said, I think it's a gaming, I mean, we've been in gaming market for decades, like a couple of decades now. I mean, I think it's a, it's an, it was a new nascent market, but now it's a, it's a, it's a large like a, they're like large international players and enterprises, it became a big industry that attracts.

Not just the gamers, but like people. Good engineering talent, as well as kind of seasoned business people and commencement. And I think it just like any maturing industry goes, there's a lot, there will be a lot of consolidation, like kind of the collaboration to find more efficiency.

And, and provide, I mean, providing the offerings to the TG audience and there, and at the same time for like a, for more like mature franchise, there's like a form of more established companies there could be continuing need to be consolidated to find more efficiency to continue build the business operations.

At the same time, as I mentioned, like gaming has been evolved as long as we've been around as a human species, right? I mean, like we, I mean, there's like a whole. Book about homo ludens, like we live to play, right? I mean, like we don't live to work. We find, and there's always novelty, new technology.

We find a way to enjoy and interact and make connections with others. And because there's so many different new technologies and, and, breakthroughs. I, I, I kind of look forward to see new type of fun and entertainment that, uh, game designers will come up with, with their like amazing imagination.

So I think that's something that I really always look forward to. And I think as a soft, we'll also have to look to both ways to find a way to be part of the kind of this exercise of like a scaling and like finding collaboration with international players. And, find operational efficiency while like not being complacent with finding new innovative ways of keeping gamers engaged.

Alex: Hmm. Okay. And then, for Korea specifically in 2025, let's just say I'm an investor and I'm looking to increase my, my Korea exposure and my portfolio. Maybe the better question to ask is what do you think is currently being undervalued? In the Korean gaming market, do you think?

Songyee: Korean gaming market has like a Uh, great talent.

I mean, I think it's, t's a lot of the great programmers and engineers are in gaming sector. So, I think there is a lot of, I mean, I think it's what's challenging is for Korean gaming company to really break out of the Korean market, be global leaders and, and, and gain the scale, but I think it's in terms of the, the development talent that you get to really spur.

So I think there is a lot of potential with the right framework and the leadership to kind of get to that stage.

Alex: Hmm. All right. Well, thank you so much. We're moving up onto time for us. Um, this is clearly a very, it's so exciting because I think it's so cool to talk to someone who spent so much of their career in a completely different gaming market than, you know, perhaps the one that Yeah, I'm familiar with or our audience might be familiar with.

So many different cultural trends, not only amongst players and consumers, but also amongst the, you know, the actual builders of the space, the business minds, the engineering minds. So I really appreciated like learning a little bit about the dynamic between some of the big Korean companies and the rich history that NCSoft has had.

This is awesome. Now, I guess a final thing that I might ask you is that, you know, many people in our audience are founders who are also potentially maybe working on an AI gaming company. If they are trying to maybe get in touch with PVC ventures, how can they reach out?

Songyee: Oh, yeah, we have a website, principalvc.com or LinkedIn. So I'm always welcome to meet new founders with new ideas.

Alex: Awesome. All right. Well, this is great. As always, friends, if you've got feedback or ideas, hit me up at [email protected]. I'm always open. And with that, we're out. See you next time.

Songyee: Bye. Thank you. Bye.

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