Over the last few years, brands have increasingly gravitated to platforms like Roblox as a way to reach younger audiences. In 2023 alone, we saw 240 brand activations on Roblox, which doubled from the year prior. In terms of revenue, this contributed to over $80 million in brand spend, which equates to roughly 10% of Roblox's developer earnings for 2023.

From the brand perspective, results can vary greatly depending on the execution. As advertisers, the cost per play session in a branded experience can range from as much as $1 to a fraction of a cent. Critical decisions include whether a brand should build its own experience versus integrate into an already popular one, and it's important to understand how well the brand resonates with Roblox's audience as well as any specific genre. With such uncertainty around outcomes, much of the spend so far has come from innovation budgets rather than traditional marketing allocations.

To explore these trends further and discuss what needs to happen for advertising to further scale on Roblox, our host, David Taylor, sat down with three veterans of the Roblox advertising space, each with their own unique approaches: Matt Edelman, President of Super League Gaming, Harry Bienenstock, Head of Growth at Voldex, and Evan Zirschky, CEO of Turning Tables.

We’d also like to thank Neon – a merchant of record with customizable webshops optimized for conversion – for making this episode possible! Neon is trusted by some of the biggest names in gaming and can help you sell direct without the typical overhead. To learn more, visit https://www.neonpay.com/?utm_source=naavik

This transcript is machine-generated, and we apologize for any errors.

David: Welcome to the Naavik Gaming Podcast. I'm your host, David Taylor. And today we're diving into the fascinating growth area within the gaming world, brand activations on Roblox.

Over the last few years, brands have been increasingly gravitating to platforms like Roblox as a way to reach younger audiences. In 2023 alone, we saw 240 brand activations on Roblox, which was a hundred percent increase from the year prior. In terms of revenue, this contributed over 80 million in brand spend, making up roughly 10 percent of Roblox developer earnings in 2023.

From the brand perspective, results can vary greatly depending on the execution. For an advertiser, the cost per play session in a branded experience can range anywhere from as much as a dollar to a fraction of a cent. Critical decisions include whether a brand builds its own experience or integrates into an already popular one and how well that brand resonates with the Roblox audience and the game genre.

With such uncertainty around outcomes, Much of the spend so far has come from innovation budgets rather than traditional marketing allocations. To explore these trends further and what needs to happen for advertising to further scale on Roblox, I'm thrilled to be joined by three veterans of the Roblox advertising space, each with their own unique approach.

Matt Edelman, president of Super League Gaming, Harry Bienenstock, head of growth at Voldex, and Evan Zirschky, CEO of Turning Tables. To kick things off, maybe everyone can just go around and introduce themselves. Share, what is your company's business model and what game or branded game you're best known for?

Maybe we can start with Harry just cause he's in the top right corner of my screen.

Harry: Fair enough. Thanks David for the intro. Great to be here. I'm Harry. I'm head of growth here at Voldex. I've been at the company for two years now. I've been in games for about a decade. I was in mobile games before I joined Alex and the team here at Voldex in the UGC gaming space.

I'm fascinated by it. It's amazing. The growth has been incredible. And yeah, happy to be here both on the podcast and in the industry in the space. A bit about Voldex and what we do Alex founded the company back in 2015 at the ripe age of 14 years old, which is incredible, and Fast forward to today, Gold X is now a 60 person team and we operate three of the top games on Roblox.

Those games are driving empire, the number one racing game and recent innovation award winner for best collaboration. The second game is ultimate football, which as of. Tomorrow, we'll be renamed to NFL Universe Football. It's the number one American football game on the platform. You can go a bit more into that if you'd like to later, David.

And we also operate the original Roblox dungeon crawler called Dungeon Quest. Similar to Diablo but the Roblox version of it. And so those are the three games that we live operate. And our business model is acquiring top games from developers and then scaling them up. We put an entire development team on it, product manager, analyst, devs, marketing, all that great stuff, and we fuel the growth of the games by live operating them.

So a few examples of Driving Empire, we brought in licensed cars and scaled the game from Bad Initiative as well as others. Also football, like I mentioned, the NFL is coming in. We expect a lot of growth from that. And then in quest, just optimizations, onboarding of users, technical stability different monetization factors, all that great stuff.

David: Awesome. And this sort of brings up a dichotomy, there's licensing and then there's advertising. And so it sounds like you guys have done more of the licensing stuff, but I believe you guys also do some advertising as well in these games to drive additional revenue. Is that correct?

Harry: That's right. That's right. Yeah. We've been primarily operating the games. That's our business model. We acquire games, operate games, and we look at the games revenue from in game purchases, premium payouts, advertising on platform. We've recently, over the past year, leaned more into brands, having brands in the game and brand integrations.

So that's a new growth factor for us and it's something that we've been doing a lot more. But yeah traditionally Yeah, we've done we've done on both sides both licensing side of things as well as the brand advertising side of things yeah happy to go into both.

David: Awesome. Thanks. Let's pass it over to Evan then.

Evan: Yeah, so I’m Evan. I go by Evan bear one on the roblox platform I have been on on roblox actually for over a decade at this point. I joined as a player in 2013 2013 And then quickly over the next, couple years around 2015, 2016 started as an influencer creating content on both Twitch and YouTube.

From there around 2016 to 2018, I had a lot of interest in becoming a Roblox developer. So I composed soundtracks for a lot of games, like Tower of Hell, miners Haven Theme Park, tycoon two. And a bunch of others, and then quickly got into doing development of my own games. So I've worked on games like Jet Wars 2, Avatar Outfit Creator, Blob Eating Simulator and a bunch of other ones.

So that's a little bit about me. My, my company, Turning Tables, we founded the company around two years ago with our first title, Avatar Outfit Creator. Since then, we have gotten about 200 million plays on that game and integrated about 25 brands within the last nine months, just in 2024 so far.

So we've seen brands like PGA Tour, Sour Patch Kids Fresh Cut, Benny Andolo, a bunch of other brands as well integrate in, and that's our big thing that we do now, is integrating brands into our existing portfolio of games. Beyond that, we also create original experiences for brands, so like Fresh Cut and Sour Patch Kids, we created a game called Rapid Rumble with Fresh Cut, and then partnered with a studio called Polycount to make the Sour Patch Kids Tycoon game on Roblox.

Beyond that, we are also a UGC agency. So we have over 700 UGC items that we've created for brands in 2024, making us the largest agency on the platform. And then we're still growing from there. Yeah, that's pretty much it.

David: Awesome. And I'm excited to ask you maybe a little bit later about the UGC side of things, because I think that's a really interesting angle as well.

But let's pass it over to Matt for now.

Matt: Thanks for having me on. Great to meet everybody. I am the president and chief commercial officer of Super League. Our primary business is helping brands and IP owners get onto the platform. We work on other platforms as well, but Roblox represents the majority of our business.

We worked with, I think, about a hundred brands in 2023, and we'll probably eclipse that this year. And we do that through a number of complementary capabilities. One of the key elements is, of course, our development studio. And probably most recently we were Recognized for bringing the Olympics to life on Roblox.

So we were responsible for building Olympics world, which celebrated the Paris Olympics and then the Para Olympics or Paralympics. And that was, very successful. Our partners were both the IOC and visa. And we. We're able to collaborate very closely with Roblox because it's such an important cultural event for them as well on the platform.

We our development studio has built a number of experiences. We've got I guess a roster of an eclectic mix. So we built the first Broadway show inspired experience in Hamilton. We acquired a studio a couple of years ago that had built and we're still operating experiences for Clark's David and Buster's Chipotle.

And we have a handful of others that are out there and pending. We also have a proprietary technology and product piece of the business. We have an SDK that 10, 000 experiences on the platform have signed up to use. Those 10, 000 experiences reach about 150 million monthly active users on Roblox.

And this set of developer tools that's baked into the SDK gives us great reach and information and data that we can bring as a good asset for our partners in a variety of levels. And one of those, probably more than others, is what we have as interactive content modules we call pop up experiences that we are able to build and distribute across multiple experiences.

And effectively they are playable drag and drop experiences. That a developer can add to their game and we've done that with dozens of brands Ranging from maybelline and beauty space to old navy as a retailer to 7 eleven We're also able to run brand lift studies for our partners through our sdk which we've done with just a wide roster of businesses and so we've really tried to be both a product oriented company, as well as a services oriented company to, help.

Third parties access the Roblox audience in a variety of creative and ROI driven ways.

David: Awesome. Yeah. All three of you represent really interesting angles of the Roblox platform. Matt sounds like you guys are very much invested in advertising tech and supporting.

Brands as they come in to advertise on the platform. There are you guys at Bold X are focused on live ops and growing games. And Evan, you're sitting in between both. You've got games and you've, you've you're also, enabling brands to advertise as well through both UGC as well as original experiences.

So I'm really excited to have you guys on all on the podcast. I would love to just hop right into it. And, the first kind of question that I have is why are brands coming to Roblox? What can you help us understand the brand perspective of what's in it for them and why should they come?

And maybe we start with Matt given that, you guys have an interesting advertising platform.

Matt: To clarify one thing, a couple of years ago super league through our SDK, which is called super biz. We like using the word super but we don't own the word super on Roblox.

There are a couple of actually pretty good games. We would love to have in our portfolio that have the name super, but no such luck. Good disclaimer. Yes, so we a couple of years ago through our SDK, we had a what I would call our a series of homegrown ad units that were very widely displayed and available in games on the platform.

And so we were running our own video ads, billboard ads, animated GIF advertisements, and that was all connected through our SDK and we're, bringing in a fair amount of revenue for developers. And then, of course, Roblox determined that, having more control around the ad ecosystem made sense for them, both from a user safety standpoint, from a revenue standpoint, from a value, proposition to brands.

And so we became a partner with Roblox in helping to bring their ad product to market. deprecated the ad products of our own that were duplicative to what is now the Roblox immersive ads platform. And so what we really have focused on instead is looking at Roblox as an experiential and content marketing platform so as to be distinct from A more traditional ad solution that really is represented quite well.

And comprehensively by Roblox is, native immersive ads. And in that regard we look at the reason brands, care about the space being that it is the most deeply engaging place on digital platforms to connect with an audience. There is no equivalent on digital and it is the closest thing in digital to real life engagement.

And that's really why brands get excited about the proposition. There are a lot of things that brands are still I'm interested in seeing prove out longer term. I know we will start to cover but to me that's really the crux of it is there is a massive audience a highly engaged audience I think you know all of us know but maybe not all listeners know that the average member of gen z Spends 156 minutes per day on roblox.

And if you think a little more broadly about 3d digital spaces The amount of time the average member of gen z spends on roblox and fortnite combined Okay is greater than the amount of time an average member of Gen Z spends per day on YouTube and TikTok combined. And so there's just no equivalent to the kind of relationship you can form if you're able to be a part Of that time spent.

And so that's really what drives, the highest level of interest

David: Anything to add Harry and Evan?

Harry: Yeah, happy to I think that matt nailed it users are spending two and a half hours a day on roblox Which is more than any other platform more than tick tock running youtube and brands since the beginning of time When they're advertising and marketing they want to be where the attention is.

So users attention that The user base I want to reach or the audience I want to reach if they're on Roblox, and that's where they need to be. If they're on TikTok, that's where they want to be. So wherever they are. So I used to be driving on a highway, they put the billboards up. Then it was, they're on listening to the radio.

So they had radio ads. Then it was watching TV. So they got TV ads in there. And at a certain point in time, Being on those platforms in front of an audience was the most impactful way to advertise to them. There was less competition. There was, just people like everyone tuning in. There was three channels back in the day.

So you're, people are watching one of the three channels at 8pm watching a specific show. That's where we are today with Roblox. There's a ton of users on that platform, Gen Z and Gen Alpha audiences. That's where they are, that's where their attention is. So if brands want to get the attention of those users, those people, then that's where they need to go.

And a big difference between advertising to a user on Roblox versus on TikTok is that, we say in gaming, users are leaned in, right? It's a leaned in audience because they're actually engaging, they're active, versus being on TikTok where they're just scrolling, or YouTube where they're passively watching at times.

So on Roblox they're leaned in and gaming they're leaned in. So yeah that's a really big deal. And I think I'd listened to that the podcast that you had recently with Eve from spin master. And he was talking about how Roblox is all about, self expression and creativity, and that's what this generation is all about.

So when you bring your brand to the space, which he's done successfully it's a recipe for success, which is. She's huge. So nice. Yeah. Shout out to Evan. Yeah. Shout out to you.

Evan: I think something else I'd add to is that a lot of brands look at Roblox as, a specific game, right? Roblox is not one game that these are, there's a lot of small communities on here.

And when I use the word small, I don't mean a thousand people actually, what I mean is actually a few million, but. In comparison to something like Tik TOK, there's these niche communities that are on roadblocks, just like how there's subsets of social media platforms and each one of these games, whether it's an FPS game, whether it's a princess role play game, whatever it may be, has a very specific type of audience.

As I'm sure all of us know, our, we have games in our portfolios that have a much larger, us female audience or, much larger Indonesian male audience or whatever it may be. And so I think when advertisers are coming to the platform, that's one thing that they really have to know is that you can actually do a decent bit of targeted advertising.

As long as you are partnering up with the right games, right? And that's what I think the power of roblox really is just how broad it is across all of the games that Are on the platform.

David: Makes a lot of sense Yeah, and so just and just to close the loop on things. I think you guys are talking a lot about brand exposure reaching audiences I think ultimately what brands want is to close is to basically grow brand affinity and brand recognition, right?

Be recognized but then also have A positive affinity associated with their brand. Just to throw in, my experience over at super social, we did we did a survey off of one of our branded experiences. And admittedly, I w I've always been a bit of a skeptic of branded experiences, but.

We did show like off of the survey that after people played our game, there was a almost doubling of both brand recognition and brand affinity from like willingness to purchase this brand's products. Even if the numbers might be lower for branded experiences, there's still impactful.

 The last thing that everyone's trying to solve is actually conversion. But I think that's still. In the works.

Matt: Yeah, so just to just, yeah, go ahead, man, David, I just, we run brand list studies every month. There's some months we run more than double digit brand lift studies.

And we also do research through our brand list study product and it runs across, multiple games through our SDK. So we're able to, get thousands, if not tens of thousands of responses in a very, in very short order. And we're generally seeing when it comes to brand lift for a marketer that puts themselves on the platform in some reasonable way.

So relative to the control group. We're seeing on the low end 14 percent left on a favorability level. But on the high end, in the twenties and 30 percent when it comes to brand preference and awareness. And so it is undeniable that there is a powerful impact for a marketer in getting themselves on the platform.

That will only take the industry so far to your point. Roi is going to be increasingly important. That's what's going to move money from Experimental budgets which you referenced to more regular, media commitments Marketing immediate commitments again. I know we'll likely get into that dialogue as well.

But the The opportunity just from affinity and awareness is clearly there.

David: Awesome. And yeah, this sort of brings us to the next question, which is, how are you, each of you positioned to serve this need for brands within the Roblox space? You showed it a little bit in the introductions, but just wondering, if you could give us an idea of, if each, if a brand were to come to you and ask, how can I activate in Roblox with you guys? What would be the opportunity for them?

Harry: So in talking to brands, when they come and talk to me or I'm talking to them, it's about, Then one to get in front of this audience, right? So the best way for them to get in front of this audience is to go where the audience is. So we can say that players are on Roblox, but they're in specific experiences within Roblox, right?

So if an advertiser wants to reach sports enthusiasts that are primarily male aged, 13 to 24, then Ultimate Football or NFL Universe Football is the place for them to reach these players that, or these users that. If they want to reach car enthusiasts or driving enthusiasts with a that are worldwide with a global presence, then driving empire is the best place for them to be.

So generally that's where the conversation starts is what is the audience that they're trying to get in front of and see if there's a match and audience match in terms of demographics, geographics, all, and interest and all that great stuff. So we see if there's a match first and foremost, and if there is, then we can talk about what type of opportunities or what they could do to, that'll be natural for the game, both for their brand and for the game.

That could make sense. A good example is we had an integration with shipped last July, where we, they have their same day delivery service owned by target and they incorporated a minigame into driving empire. And the minigame was, you open up a cell phone you're the ship driver, you take an order, you pick up the goods at a store at a place and you deliver them to, to the person that ordered.

And it's like one of your friends. And that's, Like a simulation of real life. That's what they could experience inside of the real world. So it wasn't a far fetched idea for ship to have this within dropping empire. It's very, it was a very natural fit.

David: So I think the delivery guy has a Lamborghini, right?

Harry: Except the delivery guy has a Lamborghini. That's right. Very realistic, extremely realistic. Lamborghinis were this year. So they were there last year for deliveries. But yes, exactly. That's a great point. It's a great point. But yeah, so just things that are natural, things that are a fit with a given audience.

I think it's extremely important and like getting in front of an audience that already exists. I'll say that again. And that's the point that I want to. The art bond here is that it's really tough for brands that want to come to the platform, get in front of an audience. You can't just build it and expect people to come within like a new experience that's built from scratch.

You need to build a strong game, a solid game, a strong core loop. You have to market it, get users in, have them share with their friends and have that word spread. And that's not necessarily a recipe for success. If you want your brand to be in specific types of users, then just go to where they are, which is in specific experiences within Roblox.

They're on Roblox, but they're living within specific experiences and brands need to find them where they are.

David: I think that's a really great point. How about you, Evan?

Evan: Yeah, honestly, I agree with everything that Harry said. I've worked with brands on original experiences. I have I worked at GameFan for a long time.

I actually worked with SuperSocial for a long time. And, from the learnings that I received there and learnings that I've gotten from running my own company now nine, I would say 99 out of a hundred times, honestly it's always going to be more expensive for a brand and cost more per user for a brand to make an original experience on Roblox, themselves.

If you are meeting users where they are, you're integrating into. Into games like both voldex and super league do. I think that's where a brand is going to see, whether it's now or in the future, that sort of ROI. We see it all the time in our game avatar outfit creator with clothing brands integrating in, we've had probably about five different clothing companies integrated into our game who are releasing their own UGC on the platform or wanting to promote their latest, physical.

Shirts and in apparel with insider Roblox and they're coming into our game because we have anywhere from 65 to 80 percent of our users that are, female around the age of 13 and in the U. S. If these brands are coming into our game and and integrating in it's perfect for them, right?

They're meeting the community, where they are. And they're not having to spend six figure budgets to do that, there have, they're spending even sometimes depending on what they're doing, low five figure budgets to be in our game. And interact with these players.

You should be charging more, Evan.

David: Oh yeah. We have multiple levels. Yeah. This is, yeah, great. This is the perfect place to, for us to all share advice and learnings. One, one question for you though, Evan, is one of the things that I've been scratching my head about is I see a ton of brands that are interested in UGC, right?

But I, I don't see the type of scale that That you see on some of these experiences driving empire, for example, with a UGC, you're entering a marketplace. That's very saturated. It's hard to stand out. There's a lot of, items that look exactly the same as one another.

So from your perspective, what's the opportunity. That brands are pursuing when they explore UGC. And just so the audience knows UGC are these cosmetic items that you're able to bring across experiences. They're basically attached to your avatar and they can be brought to, to any experience that you go to.

Players definitely value them. There's just a ton in the market. I don't know, are there billions of of cosmetic items, out there that you could choose from? So how does a brand stand out in the UGC space?

Evan: Right. So how we usually see UGC, especially when it's promoting either an original experience or an integration is we use it as an advertising mechanism.

We're not having these brands spend, six figures using Roblox's advertising dashboard to run sponsored ads or portal ads or things like that. Typically those have much higher cost per plays. What we're typically doing is we're giving away free UGC to to players by completing some sort of quest in the game, whether that's a scavenger hunt, where they have to run around the map and find a soccer ball.

Or, that's completing a much more complex quest, like an obstacle course, or or get a certain amount of kills in the game if that's, the objective, right? So we use UGC as basically a way to drive players to these original experiences and integrations, and that works extremely well for us because you're actually rewarding players for coming in and doing something.

Not only is that really good for your metrics, but it also makes players more engaged with whatever it may be that you're wanting them to engage with. A great example is we had a glasses company called Zeni integrated into Avatar Outfit Creator, and player's goal was to run around the map and try to find these five glasses that were hidden around.

And by doing so, you would see the glasses and you'd be able to see all the different kinds of designs of glasses that you can, buy from their website. And so it was getting people used to seeing those. And then at the end they would get one of those five glasses that they found as a free UGC item that they can have on their avatar.

And we've seen a large percentage of those users are actually still wearing those glasses on their avatar because they got them for free and it encourages them to go and complete this quest, but even beyond that, they look cool. And they they're an item that players actually would want.

So when you're creating UGC and you're a brand that's coming onto the platform you can't just create random things. It needs to make sense for the platform, right? You can look at some of the top items that are best selling on the marketplace and say, okay, how can we make our brand fit into that?

Don't just slap your logo on it. Zenny's logo was barely on those items, just on the side like they naturally are on their glasses in real life. But even for brands like Fresh Cut, we released a lot of UGC items with them that didn't have their logo at all, but it, allowed people to feel like it was an item they want, and they interacted more with the brand because of that.

Matt: I could just I think, David, if you if the data is pretty, pretty powerful. 47 percent of Gen Z expect, To discover a brand for the first time in a gaming environment. That's how much time they're spending there. That's the volume of people who are spending time in gaming environments.

And a lot of that brand discovery does come in a place like Roblox from UGC. So the opportunity to bring UGC items that have your brand attached to them, to that audience, one out of every two people is probably discovering that brand for the first time. is a pretty profound entry point. And to Evan's, point, the notion there becomes the user walking around with a billboard with your bread attached to it.

And that is exactly what happens in real life. Think of every, piece of clothing or accessory that you have ever seen somebody else wearing or carrying. And saying to yourself, I want that I just happened to me at RDC. In fact, I saw an awesome pair of shoes and I went home and I bought them.

And they were real life shoes, not virtual shoes. And so I think that's what UGC serves for a brand today. It is not a revenue opportunity of consequence yet. It is a revenue opportunity of consequence for top UGC creators. And it is a part of how the creative class that has emerged through the UGC gaming world are making a living.

And that's exciting. But that doesn't yet translate, to a brand opportunity in terms of revenue. So I think those are some, important considerations around U. G. C. If you don't mind, I do want to touch upon your earlier question, which is just how, marketers are thinking about or could be thinking about roblox.

And there's a number of parallels that are constantly drawn because of the concept that U. G. C. Gaming platforms are very much like UGC content platforms outside of gaming and the most, prominent, of course, being YouTube. We just started thinking a little bit more about what does that framework, really mean for a marketer?

And there are some terrific parallels, not just in the UGC side of it, but in terms of how marketers can engage. So if you think of YouTube I always use Nike because it's an easy, brand that everybody knows. If you're Nike, you might create your own channel on YouTube. But you know that is not the place where you are likely to get the most engagement on the platform.

It's a beachhead. You need to be there. You're definitely interested in having a place where your videos can show up and be promoted if you have a budget or something important that you want to say through video content. But ultimately, it's not going to be easy to compete with native creators on the platform.

So then you go to the next stage. How do you engage with native creators? And on YouTube, there are really two high level ways you do that. You engage a creator to create a custom video, you invite an influencer to go up to the Nike sneaker factory and do a video on how sneakers are made. They put that on their channel, it's there for three months, and it gets an enormous amount of viewership based on that.

A creator's existing audience. You don't have to buy any advertising to promote it. The next layer down is you're working with a creator in a lighter way. It's a creator. Shout out at the beginning of one of their natural videos. They're talking about the great Nike sneakers that they're now wearing, that Nike sent them that are super cool and that you as a viewer, should check out to possibly purchase and check the link in the description of the video and in the comments.

And maybe one other time during that video, you'll see the Nike sneakers 'cause the influencer will put 'em on, on camera. The last layer of engagement on YouTube is buying ads, and you can buy YouTube specific ads, and you can buy IAB standard ads on YouTube in their closed ecosystem that's plugged into the entire programmatic stack.

That, just replace YouTube with Roblox, and you have a very similar situation. You can build your own experience on Roblox if you want it to. Get substantial audience engagement. You are going to have to spend money to promote it. Harry mentioned that very clear, but it is important. You want to have a beachhead.

Your beachhead might start with UGC items. Your beachhead might start with an event based experience that's only meant to get attention for a weekend or a month. And you're not trying to be in the live ops business out of the gate. Otherwise you're going into creators and you're doing incredible integrations with, With Bold X games or with Evans game or, one of the 10, 000 games in our network.

And you're asking to be incorporated into those games in a very organic way. And that integration is baked into the gameplay and it feels natural and it feels authentic, I guess is the overused word, but it's true. And you might have that integration live for two weeks, two months, or a year, depending on the budget.

You can also go one layer down. This is where our pop ups are one of, the interesting solutions that we think are out there where the developer doesn't have to do any work, just like a creator on YouTube does very little work to do with shout out, you drag and drop an interactive content experience into your game.

And it's a light, content module that players can enjoy and connect with the brand through that. And then the last way is you can now buy ads. You can buy ads on Roblox. You can buy Roblox specific ads. You can buy IAB standard ads and they're working their way towards, adding in all of the product and measurement features so that the full programmatic stack, applies in, in, in the same ways that it applies to a platform like YouTube.

David: Yeah. I guess I see what you're saying. And I think on the branded experience side, like the parallel I draw to YouTube would be. Would you go watch Coca Cola's YouTube channel? Probably, probably not. Coca Cola is probably better off, putting their products in, an influencer who's a big fan of Coca Cola who, maybe would do it anyways, or maybe drinks Coca Cola and is already doing the advertising for them.

So I think that's where I'm. I think I agree that it is, it does seem to follow YouTube very closely. And in that way my sense is that brands are learning that building your own experience isn't the, the best way to drive engagement if that's what you're after. And I hear your point on it just, you want to have your, you want to own your channel, but if that channel is only reaching, 0.

0001 percent of the platform. And you're spending, yeah, it does depend to seven figures on it.

Matt: Then it depends, right? It's if you're, if you're an entertainment company and you are launching a movie, it's, Roblox experience is taken. The place of what used to be movie based websites, they went away for a while and entertainment companies were really only marketing on social platforms.

They now see Roblox as a place where it's a little bit more interactive and in depth and engaging than what you can accomplish on a social media platform or a digital video platform. And so it's become the new website for launching a movie for that demographic. And so there are times where a marketer, can have an effective presence.

But you're absolutely right. You have to be prepared for a long term investment. And that money might be better spent working with an existing experience and existing creator.

Harry: I'm curious about the shoes, Matt what shoes were you inspired to buy? I want to see them just like that.

You're talking about the Nikes on the, flashing on the screen.

Matt: It, they're a pair of, I have a pair of on running shoes right now. I'm actually wearing them. I'm not going to kick them up because I'll probably hurt something, but it's a different pair of on running shoes that, that I got waiting to be delivered.

And maybe the next time we're all on video, I will hold them up.

Harry: Nice. I thought it was Richard Sims, flashy Nike that he was rocking. They were, they're fresh. They looked really good during his talk. I can't pull those off. Are you kidding me? Shout out to Richard. Yeah, one thing to add on, I know this topic started on UGC items and UGC wearables.

I think it's really interesting that there are some items that exist on Roblox that are just worth a crazy amount of money right now, right? Like that, that Adidas item, that limited, that drop that's like worth like 20, 000 us dollars, right?

David: I'm skeptical about that. I feel like this is NFTs all over again, where they just buy their own product and then make a I'd love to provide some context.

Evan: There, there were two items or two quantity, two, two that were minted, whatever you want to call it of that item. It was two Roblox developers that bought it, Simon blocks and someone named coffee nerds that works on, um, works out some simple games. So these are creators that earn all their Robux from their Roblox games.

So in terms of the Robux perch purchase rate, right? So when you, whenever you're buying it with USD and buying the Robux. Yeah, it's 20, 000. But on the flip side, when you're actually DevExing and it's about 7, 000. So the value to the creators, it was about 7, 000 that they were spending, of money they would have received from Roblox.

So it's still a pretty significant amount. I would argue if they had increased that to maybe 10 or 15 people or mint, mint 15 of them probably wouldn't have sold out or at least sold for that much. So inherently, I think it's because, in my town, I've got a few million robux.

I could afford to go buy that effectively, but I think it's all about how much clout you'll get on Twitter compared to anything else.

Matt: Evan, you nailed it right there, right? You just, it's it was a nice button on what we were discussing because Yeah, there are only one class of people who can buy that type of item.

And those are developers who have earned Robux by having games that earn money from Robux transactions in their game. Maybe some UGC creators have earned enough, but even then I'm not so sure they can afford You know, you can't even if you're a user and you see an item go on sale for that many Robux, you can't even buy enough Robux.

You, you know, Wanted to spend 20, 000 on Robux using credit cards to buy. You couldn't do it, it's not actually possible. But what it says is there's a place where, brands see a level of opportunity that is meaningful. If they put items on the mark in the marketplace that have that level of value, what they're basically saying to successful Roblox creators is you are important to us.

We want to do something special for you, the creator class. And that's not easy to do on other creator class platforms. You actually have to go, do something very specific and choose the creator you want to work with on Roblox. You can put something out there that only creators can afford.

That's super cool. That raises their profile, makes them, special in the community. And whichever creator grabs it. It's a really interesting way for a brand to connect to this increasingly valuable set of creators.

Evan: I think the big question I have around that is what's the value in return to the brands?

Are they actually getting something out of this? And I think the answer is yes, they're getting the press about it for sure. I think that's probably the main reason that Adidas did that is because they also launched their original experience at the same time. And so it was a big marketing push for them.

And I think that was really great. But I think my big question is could another brand come along? Could Nike come along and do a similar thing and could they get as much attention around it? I don't know that answer, but I think that's my question is that a one time thing that Adidas was able to pull off and nobody else will be able to use that strategy again?

Or is that truly something that brands could do again in the future?

Harry: I think a good question is, who are they trying to market to? Are they trying to market to the B2B world and say, Hey, we're on Roblox, look how much this is worth, it's cool. Or just to the creators, or is it to the users? Are they trying to market to all the players, right?

Evan: I would like to touch on that, another thing too is for the last, 15 years on Roblox, there has been this very well known item called the Dominus. It actually, if you can see that purple little thing on my shelf back there, there's one right there. But a Dominus is an item on Roblox that is worth, potentially hundreds of thousands of U.

S. dollars that Roblox created way back in like 2009. And, people are still spending millions of Robux, tens of thousands of dollars purchasing these items. And, that's, that still has value to players. They still find, players and developers, they still find that it's worth it to buy those because of that value.

That clout, right? So I think, in one sense there is a big market for. Creating these high value items because yeah as you said, Matt, someone looks at your profile and they see you as that premium user they see you as somebody that's, has higher prestige.

So it just depends on if a brand can replicate that again. Awesome.

David: I want to keep us, I want to keep us moving. Let's start to look to the future. You know, uh, Roblox has been investing in ad solutions over the last year or so they brought on they brought on in real real world commerce allowing people to purchase real world items in experiences.

They announced that that's going to be an integration with Spotify, so any creator can basically link to or Shopify, not Spotify. Any creator can link to Shopify in order to sell, products from their website, as long as it's linked to Shopify. They're also investing in ad tech, which would love for, you guys to explain.

So what are some of the things that you think are the biggest opportunities for Roblox when you look at all the investment they're doing in ads and what's the opportunity for creators as well?

Matt: I can touch on that to start. I think this will be a fun discussion point. Most important is Roblox is moving towards being able to present an ad product that is on par with other ad products that reach the same audience elsewhere.

And frankly, that's their, that's the only goal that matters. Because if they can't get to parity, in terms of targetability, measurement, attribution, then their ad products will always be priced more cheaply than the others that are out there, but still maybe not valuable enough to compel a brand even at that discounted rate.

And so ultimately That's their roadmap. I don't know it specifically but I got have to believe that their roadmap and takes into account that a programmatic buyer Is looking at very specific targeting and specific metrics and specific rli measurement outcomes And as soon as roblox can check the box in all three of those buckets They will have You as successful an ad product as the ROI turns out to deliver.

So from that standpoint, advertising is I think pretty straightforward.

David: Matt, can I just double click on that? So could you give us an example from both the user experience perspective and the brand perspective of what they need to see? Like, how do you connect?

What do you envision? The experience of these ad products would be within Roblox.

Matt: I don't know that the user experience will have to change that much because the. The presence of a billboard or most importantly and prominently a video can be similar. I think even to what it already is on the platform now.

And it's really what's happening under the hood and on the back end that an advertiser cares about. And so, you know, it's everything from some of the things that, are measurable today, completion rates. And so targeting, there are certain types of targeting where you can target by age, you can target.

By gender genre, game genre, I think that you'll start to see the opportunity to target by category. You'll start to see the opportunity to target by interest level. You'll start to see the opportunity to target on a state level instead of just a country or regional level. You'll start to be able to target based on user engagement levels.

And so if you're only interested in an ad showing up where the video is likely to be watched all the way through for 30 seconds. There will be user types who are typically watching the video longer compared to user types who are typically watching the video for three seconds and they're turning away.

And all of those Areas of targeting exist elsewhere. In terms of measurement the critical measurement is really about attribution and that's a tough one. It's a tough one because as soon as you allow a user to click out of the platform, all of your policies have to change around user privacy and safety and it may take quite some time before that happens, and frankly, Exactly why on platform commerce is so important to roblox, which I have other thoughts about that maybe will come up, but I don't want to keep talking.

So I'm sure Harry and Evan have, other perspectives here. But I think e commerce inside roblox has the potential to address a part of attribution. But at the end of the day, Roblox needs to be a performance driven ad solution. And right now it's not but that's what they're striving toward.

And they've made a ton of progress since they first launched immersive ads.

Harry: So for what Roblox and now it's what they've been doing on the platform and what I believe that they need to continue to lean into to be successful in the space is rewarded video. It's the ads in the ecosystem, but the rewarded video in particular.

We see in bubble games, how successful rewarded video is. Both like publishers could thrive in that model. Advertisers could thrive in like the ad networks in between could thrive. It's just a thriving model that's been proven out already. So Roblox right now, they implemented rewarded video this past year.

They're starting to get advertisers on board, which is great. We're starting to see more demand on the platform or Advil, which is great, but we need more of it. There's a lot of supply that exists. There's a lot of eyeballs, a lot of players. We talked about all the Dow. There are 79. 5 million users that are on the platform daily.

That kind of, you have to slice it up into 13 plus and a lot of it is U. S. audiences, what's gonna be targeted and all that, but still there's a lot of available. Eyeballs that just there isn't enough filth for so robots needs to keep bringing advertisers, whether it's through direct reach outs or through plugins, ad networks, whatever it is, but they need to start bringing more mark more advertising dollars through the rewarded video through that vector.

That's where the advertiser everybody's going to come from. It's not like an image billboard. It's through a word of video. It's through users actually watching the video and then knowing if they watched it. What Matt was saying with that type of attribution, if you want to go.

Matt: Yeah, the only thing I would say there and I agree with you, by the way, it's a fantastic product release that is important.

If you look at the performance of reward video, Off of Roblox, mobile is the, most prominent place. It performs well, however, brand recall for a video that is not a reward video is higher. And that's because for a reward video, the viewer of that video ad is only paying attention to the reward they get when the video completes, they're not paying attention to the video itself.

And so it is a it's a hook that advertisers like. Okay. But I don't know if it's going to get advertisers the results that they need in order to open up the budgets that make Roblox an equivalent platform to other places where these brands are chasing the same audience.

Harry: Yeah yeah, if we're talking about budget unlock from advertisers, I think performance marketing just has so many, so much access to the dollars compared to, brand marketing or, immersive, experiential, experimental marketing or experiential marketing dollars.

So yeah, I think Performance dollars are, quite a significant part of the budget. I come from Playtica where, performance marketing was a big deal of what we did. And, the amount of dollars that flowed through, you look at, the financial statements of any public, gaming company or even any company, you'd see how big of a component the marketing, you know, can be used to that.

David: That is a huge unlock. I actually feel like this brings up an interesting question and I, sorry for interrupting and we can come back to it, but I just want to, we want to put a bookmark, which is that, in mobile advertising, a significant portion of that advertising is coming from other games that are advertising.

So when you think about growing the overall pie, I'm curious, do you guys have a perspective on whether Roblox will follow a similar suit or Roblox is more suited to attract. More brand dollars than mobile advertising does today.

Matt: So I think there's a reason that's actually demographic based, but in a way that, not everybody always thinks about.

And that has to do with the buyers of advertising. And if, so if you think about one, one statistic, the average incoming age of the CEO of a U S company is 54 years old. Let's say a CMO is five to seven years younger on average. That means that CEOs and CMOs are still in Generation X. Generation X did not grow up gaming.

They certainly didn't grow up with multiplayer gaming. Millennials started to experience multiplayer gaming when they were teenagers, so it became enough of a fabric of the way that they spent their time and interacted with peers and strangers that it is connected to how millennial executives think.

And I believe that what will happen over the next three to five years as millennials become the CMOs, much less the CEOs, is that gaming will naturally become a much more prominent consideration in marketing budgets and advertising mix and the advertising mix that a that a brand spends. And it's just going to be because that's a comfort zone for the people who are making the decisions.

Typically, you buy what you know, why is there still so much advertising on television? A it's easy. And B, it's what today's CEOs and CMOs have been buying for, 30 years. And it's what they grew up watching and engaging with in terms of content. And so I think. There is a demographic shift that's coming on the buyer side.

I also would say that ads in Roblox are much closer to marketing messages that you might encounter in the physical world because you're in this 3D space and you're moving around and you're socializing as well as playing and leaning in and, behaving in a focused way as Harry was talking about.

To me, that means there is a wider array of brands who a user will pay attention to and not just pay attention to a brand that is marketing another Roblox game.

Evan: I want to just follow up on that as well as I think Matt touched on that perfectly that, yeah, exactly. All the executives at these, large companies are not Gen Z themselves, right?

They're not, they're used to these other mediums. And I think even further on that is that Roblox is not like these other mediums. Right now we have image billboards, we have video billboards, we have this rewarded video we've been talking about. I'm Gen Z, as a player on Roblox that have been, has been here for what now uh, 11 years I think the problem with how a lot of brands are advertising on the platform is that it is still very traditional in how it's being done.

It's billboards. It's like exactly you would see in the real world, but inside of a game that you're playing. And I don't think it feels incredibly organic to a lot of the players that are actually playing on the platform. I think if you talk to a lot of a lot of the actual Gen Z players that are playing Roblox now, they would tell you like, yeah, I don't really care about that billboard that's in the game and something like, what Voldex is doing with the integrations of the car brands and and the driving empire is a perfect example of how you should be doing advertising on the platform, right?

So I think Roblox is struggling with that where they're saying, Hey, we want to build up this, advertising, dashboard to allow these brands to, to easily advertise to players. But I think, for the most part, those ways that Roblox is doing that right now are the least effective ways.

The most effective is working directly with games, to bring an experience to players that they'll actually remember. Some of my favorite branded experiences on the platform are some of the first ones, to be honest. When I say experiences, I don't mean individual, original games.

I mean, Integration. I remember one of the first ones back in, probably 2014 or somewhere around there was Jurassic World. When that game first came, or that movie first came out, they integrated into a game called The Quarry. And they redesigned the map all around, Jurassic World and, There were dinosaur bones you had to find and all these different things that felt super organic.

And that's, now 10 years later, something I still remember, but I don't remember that billboard that you, that I saw on the platform, in 2016, and so that's where I think brands are going to start figuring that out over the next, hopefully sooner, but over the next 10 years is that traditional advertising does not work on robots.

You have to do something that's more immersive, something that players care more about. And that's what's going to be most effective.

Harry: That's fun, Evan. I was just going to mention that word immersive, that immersiveness, that engaging with the content on the platform. Absolutely. That's what it's all about.

It's more impactful than seeing a billboard or watching an ad. It's actually having that brand, having your brand inside of the game and having players engaging with it. That's where that sinks in those long-term memory banks, like that's where it really registers 10 years ago. That's amazing.

David: The challenge there though is you can't make that programmatic right. You gotta work in That's right.

Evan: And I think that's what ROBLOX is struggling with the most, is they are trying to create that tool to, to be honest, get their cut, of the brands that are coming onto the platform.

And I think by having the Shopify integration to tie it in, back to that they're trying to do that, right? I don't know what they're planning with that, but I would not be shocked if they you know Are asking to take a percentage of any sort of sales that are are gotten through that.

Matt: Yeah, I mean look I think First of all, yes, they will definitely be taking a piece of the transaction through shopify But I think You know, that's okay, right? If it's working and, they're the platform, they deserve a piece. They created essentially a freeway for you as a creator to have people shopping in your space.

I don't think their motivation is to get a cut. The motivation is frankly to create more opportunities for creators to make money. And ultimately they're going to want to bring Shopify as a solution out to brands, but I think that's a little bit further out.

And I don't know that there's any timeline associated with that. The creator solution for Shopify is, I think, I don't know. I don't know if they gave us a firm date at RDC, but I don't know that it's prior to 2025 but I'm a creator of testing and I know, but roll out later. The, going back to immersive engagement on the platform, We do get excited about everything you guys are saying because we agree with it.

And that is that engagement in play based on how the platform really drives user behavior in the first place, it's all about play. So engaging through play is the only tried and true way to, create a long lasting and enduring impression with the player base. That's why our our pop up content modules, we see a 14% higher engagement rate than what's measured outside of Roblox on platforms like TikTok with sort of comparable budgets.

And and, when we have done engagements and some of these numbers may or may not, compare to what you guys have achieved in the games that you own, but, we did a promotion with Live Topia and and Mattel for Barbie. And we got 60 million visits to the Barbie dream house in 30 days.

We ran a pop up for Moira music with BB Rexha. And we had that pop up content experience in two games for two weeks. And we got 2 million visits to it. And so the, and those were visits that were in 10, 11 plus minutes of time spent. And if you think about TikTok, every video on a TikTok is less than a minute.

And the engagement numbers are just, they're not comparable. Roblox has so much to offer. You're not gonna get that in in a standard ad unit. But I still think there is a place for advertising in the form of IAB solutions. On Roblox, particularly if Roblox is able to achieve, and I might get this wrong, David, you can hold me to it, but one of the things that was mentioned at RDC, which is the goal of having 20% of time spent on Roblox not being about play over, I don't remember if it was five years or 10 years, but they are really.

Moving towards the idea that this is a place where the people on the platform are going to spend time socializing, learning, shopping, doing things that they are currently doing. It to some degree elsewhere. I don't know that they're socializing as much elsewhere. In fact, I think more real time communication happens on roadblocks, probably any other than discord.

But if they can achieve that, there is a place for, for these ads, because they seem to work effectively when that is the primary behavior. In other places.

David: Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense. And there's the ability to track conversion. There's the lower entry point.

I think there's a lot of reasons why, these ad units would make a lot of sense, even if they don't have the same impact as like an integration into avatar catalog creator or a driving empire. Or what have you. I want to wrap up our conversation by talking about RDC what were some of your best takeaways, but before we do that, Evan could, since you're the OG Robloxian here, could you just give us a sense of what does the Roblox developer conference, what does it mean for the creator base?

Evan: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, so I've been going to RDC, Roblox Developer Conference, since 2017, and it's evolved a lot over the years this was year seven or whatever for me, and especially nowadays, I think it's ultimately the place where you learn about what's going on in the platform you meet a lot of other creators on the platform share what you've learned.

And I think from there it's a great place for whether you're an indie developer or a large studio like Superleague or Voldex to network and make friends and meet brands and, work on your next projects together. But even beyond that RTC has always been a great place to connect with Roblox about, any of the things going on.

So this year they had the booths at RTC where you could go and talk to different teams from Roblox about, challenges you're facing. They even had a brand booth as well about how you can connect with brands better. And in general, RTC is just a great place for to, to connect with all different types of people.

Harry: Nice one. When I started in the space two years ago, my first, then my first two weeks, it was RTC and Alex, he was like, yeah, come to RTC you'll like. Get an idea of what this ecosystem is all about. And it really was eyeopening. It gave me a good sense of the creators, the other developers out there, the agencies and the folks working at Roblox too.

It was quite eyeopening and this was my third year there. And. Yeah, this time around, some things that really stood out to me were being able to work, work, have a lot of my colleagues out there. So about 30 bold extras that were out there. I think people spotted the purple bold extras from miles away or like this purple army.

I think the Roblox the Roblox team got. A little bit scared when they saw us walking by the booths because we were just going and drilling them with questions. Yeah might be a bit of a PTSD on, on, on their side of things. But yeah being with the, with all the Vodax folks was great.

Meeting with developers, meeting with the Roblox teams, people that I talk to often, it's just good to see them in person. Same thing with the brand partners. And every time you talk about sharing knowledge, I think that in roadblocks, like developers are very open to sharing and what's been working well for them, even though, they're in competition at the same time, it's like a collaboration as well, which I find really cool.

Even for myself, I shared I was invited during one of the talks on a panel to talk about how to grow your game, analytics. And I shared a bunch of real world examples, exactly what we did, what we tested and what worked and why it worked and. Hopefully creators are able to take some of that away and and implement it because I think what's the saying that the rising tide lifts all ships, right?

Yes, we're all competing against one another, but at the same time, if we want to make the platform a better place for users to play and stick around, then it's better for everybody. Yeah it was great. I thought it was awesome. Vortex won an award. We're nominated for five. We won one, so we're happy.

And everything is good. We enjoyed it.

David: Harry, it was my third year as well. And it was also my third year of seeing the same Voldex shirts marching around. My one request is try a new t shirt guys. Come on.

Harry: Year one, we went with black t shirts and we wasn't as memorable.

We went with purple last year, we went with a different purple. It was a dark slightly darker purple. This year, the logo was on the side of the chest. It's out of the middle of the t shirt.

David: All right. All right. Glad to know you guys are mixing it up a little bit.

Matt: Me, there were two high level observations.

One It is very similar to what both Evan and Harry have said. Harry did say the rising tide lifts all ships. I think it's ships in Canada, boats in the U. S. But the that was so impressive to me. It really was, this is a group of enterprising, creative individuals who are unabashed in their ambition, and really only limited in what they can accomplish by their imagination and skill.

And this was a place where they gathered as a community, a powerful, tight, supportive community for the very purpose of advancing their knowledge and advancing their skill. And hopefully each creator's unique imagination then gets expressed in a way that helps them continue to be successful as creators.

Enterprising young generally young people in addition to some of the commercial studios like bold x and super league But enterprising young people who are trying to create a career and make a living and you know Make this something that they can do every day or as long as they want throughout their life and it was that That sense of community and the fact that look Everybody there who creates content on roblox competes with everybody else who's there And yet that level of competitive spirit that you would often find in other forums didn't prominent theme at all.

It felt collaborative, it felt cooperative, and that is rare. And you got to give both the community, but also roadblocks, a lot of credit for being able to cultivate that emotion as the prevailing sort of expression of. Of, people's enjoyment while they were there. And it leads to the other observation, which is.

Roblox of course was created as a UGC platform. So the creator and developer community is really the lifeblood of the organization. And it's just not easy. For a company who relies upon such a diverse group of creators from all over the world, with varying ages, varying interests, multiple languages.

It's not easy for a company to be good at showing that community how important they are. And I think Roblox did a spectacular job of that. They really emphasized the, How critical developers and creators are to Roblox, to their success, and how much Roblox is focused on giving creators more of what they need.

There will always be tension between platforms and creators when it comes to economics. Can't avoid it. There's been tension on YouTube since the very beginning. But Roblox really did a very admirable job, in my view, of showing the creator community how important they are and how much respect Roblox has for them.

David: Yeah, I couldn't agree more. This is my, it was my third RDC, my first RDC. I was also like Carrie, just getting started and didn't know a single person at the show. And, found myself just by happenstance talking to some creators who had, tens of millions of DAU in their games and who are more than happy to share, you know I think like it's a unique platform, Kudos to roblox kudos to all the creators for also cultivating such an inclusive community kudos to evan Who's our staple creator on the interview.

And you've been here for over 10 years. So you've been had a front row seat and also been a participant of that over the years. Yeah, it's been awesome. So just to wrap up, how can everybody, follow you guys stay in touch? What's the best way for people to reach you?

Matt: For me it’s, look me up as Matt Edelman on LinkedIn. I have the unique distinction without specifically revealing my age, although I really don't care. I'm one of the first 100, 000 people to have ever joined LinkedIn. So I got my name clean and so you can find me as Matt Edelman on LinkedIn.

David: You're like the Evan Zirschky of LinkedIn.

Matt: Yeah. If I could have been so lucky, I've been far surpassed my level of success by the time. But from when I was his age, by the time he turned 20 .

David: Exactly. Awesome. How about you Evan?

Evan: Yeah. You can find me on LinkedIn. Evan Zirschky clean LinkedIn link.

I've also got Twitter. It's at Evan ZIR. And you can check out our company at turningtables.games.

Harry: For me, my last name is probably too hard to remember. It's Harry Bienenstock, but you could find me on LinkedIn, Harry, it's just, I've been Harry at Voldex. There's actually two Harry's there.

So I'm one of the two. I know I went the long last name. That's me.

David: Awesome guys. Thanks so much for being on the podcast. This was a great conversation. I think a lot of people are going to find it interesting to just, wrap their heads around all of the angles for brands to come onto the platform.

I'll see you guys around.

If you enjoyed today's episode, whether on YouTube or your favorite podcast app, make sure to like, subscribe, comment, or give a five-star review. And if you wanna reach out or provide feedback, shoot us a note at [email protected] or find us on Twitter and LinkedIn. Plus, if you wanna learn more about what Naavik has to offer, make sure to check out our website www.naavik.co there. You can sign up for the number one games industry newsletter, Naavik Digest, or contact us to learn about our wide-ranging consulting and advisory services.

Again, that is www.naavik.co. Thanks for listening and we'll catch you in the next episode.