AI is making game creation more accessible, but building reliable games that can reach players across multiple platforms requires more than simply prompting an LLM. Host Devin Becker welcomes Robby Yung, CEO of The Sandbox, to discuss Sandbox Studio and its approach to AI-assisted UGC development. Robby explains what the team learned from the original Game Maker, where Studio draws the line between structured creation and “vibe coding,” and how AI can combine code, assets, systems, and accumulated development knowledge without turning game creation into an unpredictable black box. The conversation also explores The Sandbox’s shift toward letting creators publish beyond its own ecosystem, how LAND and Web3 fit into that strategy, and what becomes scarce when creators can produce far more content. Looking further ahead, Robby shares his perspective on how AI and UGC tools could reshape the roles of engines, publishers, and platforms as multi-platform game creation evolves over the next several years.
We’d like to thank Overwolf for making this episode possible! Whether you're a gamer, creator, or game studio, Overwolf is the ultimate destination for integrating UGC in games! You can check out all Overwolf has to offer below.
This transcript is machine-generated, and we apologize for any errors.
Devin: Hello, everyone. I'm your host, Devin Becker, and today I'm delighted to be joined by Robby Young, CEO of Investments at Animoca Brands, as well as a little more recently, the CEO of The Sandbox.
Sandbox recently announced Sandbox Studio, an AI-native game engine and publishing pipeline specifically built to take creators from ideas to live multiplayer games in hours. Today, we're gonna discuss some things around that, multi-platform UGC and what AI actually changes for creators. So just to catch people up who aren't familiar, can you just give a quick overview of your background and how you ended up CEO of The Sandbox?
Robby: Sure, no problem. Hi, Devin. Thanks for having me. And hello to everybody. And so, my name is Robby Young. I'm the CEO of Investments at Animoca Brands. And as you said, more recently I've taken on responsibilities at Sandbox too, which has been, you know, our largest sort of subsidiary for many years.
And you know, I have, I guess, a reasonably long background in Web3, as, as far as those things go. It's been almost 10 years now, and a bit longer in gaming. So, I came into gaming at, at the beginning, kind of early days of the mobile era, around 20- 2011 I believe it was, 2012. And, uh, and before that I was in media, and before that I was in Web1.
Um, and so I've kind of, you know, seen many cycles of different sorts. And most recently I've taken over the responsibilities for overseeing Sandbox, as I mentioned. So, I-- A lot of the focus these days is really on this sort of intersection of what AI is allowing people to build and develop, particularly in interactive entertainment, but also how that works together with what we're doing in Web3.
Devin: Perfect. Well, let's get into Sandbox Studio a little bit then, since this is kind of the latest and greatest thing you guys have announced. So first off, kinda what it is and then what- Was or wasn't working about the original Game Maker to kinda understand the context for this?
Robby: Sure. So, the original-- I think the best way to give you the context is Sandbox was a 2D mobile game originally.
It launched, you know, back in 2011 at the, in the early days of the mobile app stores, and it was inspired by Minecraft. It was inspired by the idea that, you know, everybody could be a creator, and it was great to have an open world environment where people could come and play or create or both, right?
And that's hence the name. And so, when we acquired the business in 2019 and started building a Web3 product, together with the team, the idea was also around not just creation at the, at the heart, but ownership of those creations and thinking how Web3 and tokenization can really revolutionize your ability to own your own assets, so own your own characters or weapons or, or assets, in-game assets.
But also, how you can tokenize in-game currency so that you can have value coming in and out of the game, you know, in and out of, of, of the so-called walled garden because the garden's no longer walled anymore because it's, it's Web3 compliant. And so that was the vision. Now, fast-forward, what is it?
Seven years now We created an open world metaverse. We had a game client, and we implemented the game in seasons over the years to sort of harness people's focused playtime over several month intervals each a couple of times a year. And the game maker was a client, a PC client that allowed you to create game experiences.
And I would say it was basically the best we could do with the tools that were available circa 2019 to 2024. And then AI came along, LLMs specifically, and changed all that. Because one of the things, as we've all seen, that LLMs are specifically great at is writing code. I mean, that's really, you know, it's kind of like made by people who write code to make writing code easier for them.
And so, it works really well for that. And, but they are general purpose tools. And so, what we wanted to do was we wanted to create very specific tools, meaning we wanted not just code- coding tools, but things for making games and coding games. And so, we developed Sandbox Studio as the successor to the original Sandbox game client, but now with this sort of super-powered brain of, of LLMs behind it.
And so, what, what that does is it actually unleashes the ability of what you can create with the tool, because ultimately the Sandbox game creator tool originally had limitations because it could only do what we as the developers enabled the tool to create, right? And so, we had to make a tool for you to make an endless runner game, a tool to make a match three puzzle game, et cetera.
And if we had not thought about the tools, you couldn't necessarily make it because you couldn't just use the tools to make anything. But now with Sandbox Studio, actually, and the power of LLMs, that's, you know, that, that's, that's history.
Devin: Nice. Well, it's good to open that up. I, I am kinda curious about like the sort of target user and stuff.
This is-- You said in some previous discussion that this isn't really meant to be a, a vibe coding tool necessarily. But the alpha criteria specifically asked for like vibe coding experience. So, I'm kinda curious- Yes ... like where that line is for you between sort of vibe coding- Sure ... and using this as a power user, and what you're looking for in this audience.
Robby: Sure. So, I think what we're looking for is we're looking for people who have some familiarity with making games, because making games is a specific discipline. And you know, and it's not just enough to be, you know, a huge fan and player of games. And there are many of those. But I think in terms of vibe coding What we think of as vibe coding style interaction, right?
So natural language is one of the main ways that creators work with Sandbox Studio. And so people who already have had a lot of experience collaborating with coding agents were some of the best people in our alpha launch of Sandbox Studio because they totally understood how to iterate with AI.
You're, you're used to s- sort of speaking the language of AI, but that's largely vibe coding because it's not necessarily, you know, a system prompt and, and coding anymore. But the distinction is that Sandbox Studio is not just an LLM pointed at a code base, right? Underneath is an agent, a purpose-built game engine with an editor, scene systems, gameplay components, physics, you know, the whole nine yards.
So, the agent can operate those systems directly through tools and MCP instead of just writing piles of files and hoping that the result works. And ultimately, the output is r- a real structured game project so that the creator can inspect it, you can edit it visually, you can change the code, you can run it, you can debug it, you know, and then you can publish it.
So unlike, you know, working with a, with a traditional vibe code like, "I'm gonna one-shot Fable and, and make a, you know, make an extraction shooter," this is actually literally, you know, doing the development work for you and providing you with a game code base that then for those who are familiar with it, can go back in and tweak and edit and everything like that.
Devin: Cool. That sounds pretty good. I mean, it obviously that experience helps and, and I'm sure it's evolving too in, in terms of how that will actually work. When it comes to LLMs though, uh, especially in coding, uh, they can be a little bit random, right? You have that sort of black box randomness. I mean, some of that randomness is intentional, right?
The way- Yeah ... AI work to not be repetitive and get caught in loops and all that stuff. But when it comes to coding then, that starts to become like obviously the code is reproducible and stays consistent, but the AI is not necessarily, especially as the context grows. That's just become maybe a little unpredictable, overriding past variables, things like that.
How do you make it produce more predictable, replicable game output, especially as a project iterates over time?
Robby: Okay. So, I think one of the things here is that we don't try to make the LLM itself deterministic. What we try to do is we try to reduce the amount of the game that the LLM has to invent.
And so, the core functionality lives in those deterministic systems, right? Like physics and input and multiplayer, scene structure engine APIs, that kind of stuff. But the agent is usually composing and configuring those systems, um, rather than rebuilding them from scratch every time. The agent can also inspect the actual state of the project.
So, it can see what objects exist, what components are attached, what assets are available, and what errors are occurring, most importantly, 'cause obviously debugging is something LLMs are great at. And then it can run the game, it can inspect the result, debug it, you know, and, and help to iterate, right?
Make changes. And so, templates and known architectural patterns give it the reliable starting points as well. So most importantly, once something is built, the game exists as actual code, which I mentioned before, right? Project data, assets, configuration. And so the LLM is not regenerating the whole game every time somebody launches it.
And that way the creation process can be probabilistic while the resulting game is a normal deterministic piece of software. Does that make sense?
Devin: Right. So, is it then, is it then that there's essentially like a game engine, and then it's-- this is scripting for that engine essentially? Like pre-built?
Robby: Correct. And, and so what you're doing is you're using the LLM for essentially to assist you to do all those things that we as game developers, people, used to do, right? So that you can make a single human much, much more powerful. But you're not actually asking the AI, the LLM to bypass steps and therefore obfuscate the, the work that's going on underneath.
Devin: So, is it the, the LLM already kind of preloaded with knowledge about the engine, like how to properly execute things, how to actually go about it, and what, you know, maybe what functions to call, those kinds of things?
Robby: Correct. Correct. And so that's, that's where we talked about it as, as essentially like an orchestration layer, because what we're doing is we're creating, structures and patterns to help, help it to understand how to interact with the assets and, and, and the logic.
Devin: If, if you did happen to change the engine over time, then would you just be able to have the LLM sort of patch people's code to adapt to the changes in the engine? Like let's say you changed a, a function name or how it worked- Yes ... it would then be able to potentially patch everyone's game?
Robby: In theory, yes. Which is pretty cool.
Devin: I just think of it, you know, 'cause you talk about like the y- y- you see stuff like a y- Unreal Engine go through these big upgrades, and then everyone has trouble trying to adapt to it. Yes. And that's a situation where it's like, well, we're just kinda stuck locked on this engine now- Yeah
because you can't really upgrade. So, I think that's an interesting thing to deal with that you may not have to in a, in a more AI-native engine.
Robby: Yes, definitely. Definitely. But again, I think the important part is these are tools that help you to make all of the building blocks of a game in a better f- ho- hopefully better, faster, cheaper kind of way.
But not just, you know, oversimplify the task to the point where you don't actually know what happened.
Devin: Right. And you've said you, you've encoded like, a, a whole bunch of knowledge from hundreds of studios, thousands of shipped games. And how does that-- Like first off, how, how does it actually kind of remem- know all that stuff?
I-i is that just, you know, like some s- system prompt kind of things like or, or files or like knowledge base? And how does that really sort of reach the creator? Like is it, is it guiding sort of how it does things? You know, outside of just the engine guidance, but how it actually like designs it. Is it providing any like, you know, best practices, those sorts of things?
Robby: So, I guess it, it affects it in two ways. One is that obviously, um, over the years the, the studios and creators in Sandbox have built a huge number of games and experiences using the existing game maker, right? And so that gives us a huge body of practical knowledge about what people try to build.
Obviously Sandbox itself has a particular voxel visual art style, which affects, you know, what types of things people tend to make. But also, we understand where they struggle and what systems get reused and what workflows work, what breaks, and, and what creators at different skill levels need. And so that's frankly institutional knowledge more than anything else.
But it helps us to really understand, I think, how to make a better tool set to cater to the, the audience, because we have such a huge sample size and so much experience, which is great. But the important part is that we turn that knowledge into the, the platform itself, right? It, it shows up in the engine architecture, in the templates, in the reusable systems in the defaults and the, and the tools that are exposed to the agent and it, it affects really the way that the agent is taught to solve common game development problems, right?
So, for example, if a, if a creator asks for multiplayer, the goal is not for the model to invent a networking stack, right, from first principles. It should understand and, and use the multiplayer systems that are already provided by Sandbox Studio, right? The same logic applies to asset handling, publishing, performance, everything, right?
Devin: Is, is AI used to help improve that engine at all, or is that more just hand-coded so you can kinda tune it?
Robby: It's a little bit of both, to be honest, because, you know, these-- while we've been working on this, you know, Sandbox Studio for a couple of years already, the tools are still very much evolving in real time.
And so, we're continually using them and using their sort of evol- evolvements to, to improve our own tools. So it's a, it's a living organism of sorts.
Devin: That's how all software's gonna end up at this point with that, with that sort of ability and capability- Yes ... constantly shifting. -
Robby: Yes. A- and I think that's where, that's where we bring up that, that word guardrails.
Devin: Right. Yeah. I- i- is that a thing? So is there some level of guardrails happening in the sense of like, first off there's the, there's the guardrails in terms of like making sure it correctly implements things and doesn't create bugs and all that- Yes ... stuff. But then there's also the guardrails of like is there any kind of guardrails related to content? And obviously that begs the question of like censorship of content or like even variable names can be offensive, right? Like there's-
Robby: Yes ...
Devin: Like a lot of potential for, guardrails or censorship to mess with what you're doing. Is-- what, what does that look like so far?
Robby: So, I think we do think about that, and we do think that, you know, um, it is important to have a, a, you know, a fun experience for everybody.
I think in our case we don't have such an issue with that necessarily because we don't have a product that's overtly geared towards children and, and family content. So being more of a I was gonna say an adult platform, but that has an odd connotation.
Devin: Yeah.
Robby: It does.
Devin: But as opposed to, say, Roblox, for example.
Robby: Yeah, but as opposed to, say, Roblox, where you're gonna have the average demographic is seven, right? So, I think in our case we don't, we don't quite have the same constraints because, to be honest, there are a lot of games that, you know, are about violence. People like shooting games. It's a big part of action role-playing games, right?
We like to conquest and reenact, battles on mass- massive scale, in RPGs. And, and that's, you know, that, that's a part of gameplay. So, I think we don't have much problem with that. I think when it comes to things like hate speech and all that, of course, we, you know, we have, we have little tolerance for that.
Devin: Well, cool. Well, hopefully that, that'll work consistently. I know that's a g- a constant ongoing problem, especially when it comes to LLMs, because, like, they do have the advantage of understanding context better than hard-coded things like just keyword block lists and stuff like that. But at the same time, you know there's always some variability there.
Robby: Yes.
Devin: But in related to that, one of the supposed advantages here of, , this Sandbox Studio versus the Game Maker from before is the ability to publish multi-platform outside of just the Sandbox. Obviously, that's where- Yeah ... guardrails may be a little more helpful just because they tend to be more respl- restrictive than the Sandbox.
I guess the biggest question is, I mean, obviously, like there's some potential advantages to that. Mm-hmm. But then that does allow people to then start to move off the platform that you're building. Yes. Why kind of give up that exclusivity or kinda open those gates? What's the, what's the main benefit to you, and like why do you see that as a, a good thing to be doing for the, the creators and players?
Robby: I guess the simplest answer is we're game developers, and every game developer has always wanted this, right? The one thing game developers hate the most is the fact that you get locked into platforms, right? And you, you do that often because there's a publishing deal and it's an economic trade-off, right?
Often a, a platform may, may help to publish your game and, and give you development capital, so in exchange they have exclusivity, which is fair enough, right? You, you decided to make that relationship. But in the case particularly of indie developers who are not able to have publishing deals like that, then you end up going to a platform that takes 30% off the top of your business for ostensibly services of payment processing and distribution and visibility.
But the problem is that sometimes on platforms where there is a huge amount of competition, you know, let's cherry-pick and take m- you know, the Android Store and the Apple App Store, they're massive. When you have tens of millions of titles, you know, as a developer, is that fee you're paying for visibility in a store with 10 million competitors?
Not really. I mean, it was back in 2010. Yes, that was worth it. But it's become incrementally less worth it over time, and yet the fees remain the same. And so, I think from our perspective, we wanted to create a place that recognized that indie developers are the ones that drive creativity and the game industry largely.
And we ourselves, you know, we're not Roblox, we're not Steam. We don't have a massive, massive audience in the same way that those Web2 platforms do. And so, what we want is we want people to come and create content on Sandbox, but we don't want to restrict them to Sandbox. We wanna recognize the fact that AI creation tools will now allow you to essentially make one game, but publish it in multiple locations, as opposed to having to actually make multiple versions of your game.
And because of that cost savings and that ease of use, we hope everybody will by default publish to Sandbox, but then also publish somewhere else, because as an indie you need to make a living, and if you can bring together revenue from several diverse platforms that allow you to make a living with a fun, quirky game that has, you know, small audiences on, on several different platforms, that's awesome, because actually that's really in the spirit of what makes games great.
Devin: So, I mean, I guess in that vein then when it comes to maybe treating The Sandbox as a primary platform for this now, the other one's maybe a secondary two questions then. One is, is there any kind of tr- like fee? And two, like related to that, is there a way to make money? Like how, how is monetizing off of Sandbox games work?
If there is that, how does that look? Is that, is that only in a Web3 aspect? Is there normal payment rails? Like how does all of that look for the creator?
Robby: So again, what we want is we want the, s- we want the creators to have as much optionality as possible, but in true Web3 fashion, we want to incentivize them. And so, with Sandbox Studio, you're welcome to use, you know, the SAND token or other Web3 tokens. You're welcome to use fiat, or stable coins if you want a hybrid, right? We welcome, we welcome all, all, all denominations of currencies. But I think what we've tried to do is we've tried to say, "Look, if you're a web two developer, you know, you're from the Three.js community, for example, and you just wanna make cool stuff with Sandbox Studio and have people come with their credit cards and their, and their, you know, OAuth logins, have at it.
You know, have a great time, publish to Steam, make a great game." And, and there will be, you know, there, y- we will, there will be a fee associated with your game creation process because obviously there is, you know, there are token fees in the AI sense of the word token, in order to use the underlying compute, et cetera.
But we also hope that you will consider publishing to Sandbox and consider buying land and using SAND. And if you do, there will be benefits to do so. So, for example, you will have, you know, as a landowner, you will have increased monetization, you will have increased visibility in terms of, you know, the, the Sandbox map and the way in which game discovery is, is done through the Sandbox platform.
And obviously you will have benefits to using SAND, um, because we want to encourage and incentivize people to use SAND as the native currency. And because there's a knock-on benefit, which is the cost of the Web3 transactional infrastructure is much lower for us too, so we can pass some of that on as a benefit to incentivize developers and players.
Devin: Awesome. And you kind of hit it off a little bit with my next question too, which was where kind of the land ownership fits in. For the, especially for people who may not be familiar, I mean, I know like long time, you know, Regis Naavik stuff and viewers probably are a little more familiar just because we've done a lot of Web3 stuff in the past, but-
Robby: Yes
Devin: Like what is, what is the concept of land in the Sandbox? How does it fit into all this ecosystem, especially like from not just the monetization, but also like discovery, curation, publishing those sorts of things? How does all that fit in and how does it work, especially now that it's been a while since that started?
Robby: Sure. So, the original conceit of Sandbox was that it was a 3D metaverse, so it was a 3D, you know, a visualization of a physical world. And so, we created a map of land and, and creators and developers and people own parcels of land, and they have physical adjacency to each other. You can look at the map and it's fixed, and you know exactly where your land is and who your neighbors are.
And some of the land value was influenced by that, just like it is in the physical world. So, if your neighbor's with Snoop Dogg or Gucci or HSBC, that might have an impact on the value of your land. And I think one of the things that has been challenging obviously has been that, you know, the, the, the interest in, in the idea of meta- of a metaverse, was very much intertwined with the fate of a large social networking company, unfortunately, and the public attention.
And so I think that,, was something that faded from people's minds in terms of interest, despite the fact that there are plenty of game industry success stories of actual metaverses, because most people don't think of things like EVE Online as a metaverse, but it very much is. And, I think that- What we have now is essentially a way to help bring the spirit of that ownership and that physical adjacency of land, but to something that is a lit- a little bit more amorphous, because what we wanna do is we wanna use Sandbox Studio and sandbox.game as a publishing platform.
And we want for people to come who want to either find and play great fun games or create them. And so, because it's a destination for game making and game play, obviously we will be curating, you know, what people see, and we will be featuring, you know, things that are really cool and fun and, and they can find them elsewhere via social media, but also on our platform.
And so, as a landowner, you will have prime positioning to have your products and your games promoted because we want to encourage, you know, benefits to owning land. There will be increased monetization as a result of being a landowner, so you will actually be able to earn from your game at a different rate than others because we want to encourage land to be used.
And, and then over time, the slightly more ambitious, feature which we hope to launch later in the year will be, to be able to have landowners be able to rent their land to other people to be able to create and use for monetization so that you can benefit from the ownership of your land without necessarily having to be the primary builder.
Devin: That makes sense. I mean, we, we have the whole concept of the internet just hosting as a thing, right? Like, so-
Robby: Yes ...
Devin: I think it translates for the most part. And something you kinda touched on a little bit that I, I just wanted to make sure that gets covered as well i- is around Web3 in general. Is that a bit of a low point in general?
Like, I mean, obviously it kinda goes up and down depending on how you, what angle you're looking at it from. But in, in general, it's not exactly, like, the hottest thing at the moment.
Robby: Yes.
Devin: And you mentioned, like, monetization can be fiat or whatever you wanna use, but are-- do you consider the token layer, whether that be Sand or any other Web3 token-
Robby: Mm-hmm
Devin: To be, like, an asset or a friction point for creators? Like, obviously you could see it as maybe some advantages for being a, a creator or- Yes ... some big disadvantages, like, especially when it comes to turning off or on a particular audience.
Robby: Sure. So I think it's, I mean, personally, I think it's an asset.
I think, though, it, it depends the manner in which you deploy it. So, I think one of the things that turned people off of Web3 games in the earlier days was when we put up front the UI/UX of onboarding to Web3 and make, made that a prerequisite to engaging in the game. That turned a lot of people off of the door, because it's a little bit like saying, "Oh, you know, this is a members club.
You have to go and sign up and join first before you can come inside." "Oh, but can I even look?" "No, you have to go and sign up." Right? And, and that's a turnoff in, in any kind of situation. And so, what we wanted to do was we wanted to create an environment where you can come in, you can be involved in Web3 if you want, but you don't have to, right?
You can just come in and use your Google sign-up or your Facebook login or whatever you want, right? Sign up with your email. And you can ignore that Web3 exists altogether if that's what you wanna do. That's fine, right? But if you want to use the Web3 rails, then you should be able to reap all the benefits of that.
You should be able to have lower fees, faster transactions, and more flexibility because those Web3 rails exist, and in my personal opinion, they're better than the fiat rails. And I think also as a platform, one of the things, you know, that we will benefit from here is frankly that core concept of Web3, which is Tokens help engender network effects.
And so here we have an opportunity to reach out to token communities across Web3 and say, "Look, we're building something really cool here in Sandbox, and guess what? You know, you have an audience of token holders there who are feeling, you know, a little bit bored, or maybe the core product that they've been, you know, part of the community for is languishing.
Why don't you come and spend those tokens in Sandbox and create something cool with those tokens in Sandbox?" And that's a network effect because it'll, it means we can go out and reach out to that token community and onboard them to Sandbox just by accepting their token essentially.
Devin: And so, how, when you say they'd be able to spend that in Sandbox, how, how does that work?
What do you mean exactly in b- terms of... So obviously that's a, a foreign monetization in a way coming in. How does that integrate?
Robby: Sure. So that integrates in the s- same way, same way as any other, what would I say? Any other currency in, in that respect. So, it would be a currency just like if you were spending credit card or fiat for Cognition credits, because what we would do is we would charge you in your native token for, at the prevailing exchange rate, for usage of Sandbox Studio, you know, Cognition credit.
Devin: So, you then as a company are accepting these, - Correct ... so tokens? Okay. Interesting. Correct. And then just taking them at the just current market value.
Robby: Yeah, exactly. Okay. So come and bring your, you know, bring your Ape, bring your Gala, whatever it is.
Devin: Cool. And so, I mean, with the scaling up, you're talking about, like, bringing all these communities and things like that.
There's obviously the Web3 side, and then I assume your hope is to get a much broader audience, especially with the ability to, publish to these other platforms, things like that. If everyone could do that and scale up- Mm ... the amount of content that they make, in theory, right, because the, the, the engine part is handled.
They, they're just then hitting content. What's kind of the bottleneck for these creators? And then on the flip side of that, how are you handling sort of the discovery aspects of that?
Robby: Sure. So, the bottleneck I would say is most likely gonna be what we don't know at the moment, because when you build a platform like this, scaling it always enco- you always encounter unexpected s- you know, roadblocks, right?
Scaling problems, hosting problems, throughput problems, you know, you name it. And so, I suspect that the main bottlenecks are gonna be things that frankly, we can't yet anticipate, and that just, you know, these things happen. I think in terms of discovery, one of the things that we're thinking a lot about is how we build that sort of discovery platform.
Fortunately, I have a colleague, you know, with, with App Store background um, who has a lot of experience in, in working on discovery and working with studios. I think that discovery is a really important part, and that's gonna be driven not just by a gameplay on, on Sandbox Studio, but also paying attention to signals, right?
Paying attention to, you know, if we have creators, 'cause I expect that we will have creators making games who come from other creator venues. They may be primarily known as YouTubers or, you know, people on Twitch or other places. And so there will be other social signals that will tell us their, you know, how much interest level there is in their content and engagement and things like that.
And so, the beauty of having AI agents also involved is that we can now monitor all these things, whereas in the past, we were just thinking about curation from a human standpoint and, you know, and nobody can sit and monitor nine different platforms and channels for every, every product. But we can do that now.
So, we can come up with, I think, a much more educated idea of how to surface content that we think people will like.
Devin: Are you then taking any approach like the way, probably not as extreme, but like the way that, for example, Unreal, that with the Fortnite islands and things like that are tend to pay out based off engagement.
They're looking at trying to incentivize engagement. Obviously, they have the, the monetization going towards Fortnite as a whole, so it makes sense from that. But I mean, even just from like a, your own curation or the things, you have all those signals, are you looking to then at least do some level of promotion?
But are you looking at doing incentivized promotion? How are you looking at kind of having your hands in that pie?
Robby: So I think it's a little bit too early to say, frankly, because we're only just planning to launch this autumn sort of in, for the, for the public launch., But I think one of the things that we've learned, you know, based on all our Web3 experience, which, you know, was heavily geared around incentivization is it does work, and it is a call to action and, and people come, right, when there is an incentive.
And so, you have to think very carefully about how you structure those incentives because you will get what you ask for. You know, r- when you run a game jam and put a bounty that is significant enough, people will come because they wanna win, right? There's a reward at the end of it. And so, you have to decide carefully about what you're trying to incentivize and, and that's, I, I dare say the, basically the subject of tokenomics really.
And, and so we think a lot about that, and we do think it's a very, very good tool. We will actively use it, and the point will be, I think, more to think how we can use incentivization to build community. And as game makers, one of the things we understand is that retention is always the North Star metric.
That's the most important thing, and as long as we have people who are coming back and playing, everything else will follow.
Devin: I suppose you also have, like, the ability to then use, use SAND tokens and potentially even LAND as incentivization because it's one that does build towards your own retention, right?
In theory, right? Obviously, assuming people don't just cash out whatever it is and then peace out. But in general, that helps kind of similar to what Fortnite's doing, which is trying to keep them kind of close as you can when you're incentivizing the creators-
Robby: Yes ... theory. Well, and also, if you think about it from a tokenomics standpoint, the interesting thing is that if you actually have a large distributed community, you don't actually have the same tokenomics challenges that you often had with low float, high FDV tokens in the past because you don't have the same level of whale activity.
Meaning when y- in Sandbox Studio, when we have individual developers making games, the transactions that are coming back and forth for cognition and in-game purchases are not significant enough to move token prices, for example. And so, it actually then just functions as underlying liquidity, which is what it's supposed to do.
Devin: Right. Yeah, the, I mean, the liquidity aspect is always great for your, your whole platform, I imagine, then in that case, and having those players kind of flowing in and out. Obviously, you do have the situation where, like, people that are then playing the game on other platforms are not necessarily gonna provide you that same level of liquidity and economics because they're...
I don't think Apple's gonna be taking, you know, the SAND token as part of their payment rails. The, I'm not ruling that out, I'm just saying not anytime soon, right? Like, that, that doesn't, there doesn't seem to be a lot of motivation for them to go that direction, so that is kind of, that sort of thing is limited a bit more towards your platform.
And, and out of curiosity, just because I don't think it's really been stated, and it might not be clear for people out there, this platform itself, is it something that you're playing via the web, via downloaded PC client, Mac-compatible and Linux-compatible as well? Is this playable on consoles or mobile?
Just to kinda give a broad idea where, where this impacts for staying Sandbox native.
Robby: Sure. So ultimately, the answer is yes to all of those. But we're starting out with, we're starting out with web and, and client first, PC client first and- and, and mobile, sorry.
Devin: Okay. Pr- yeah, I mean, so is there a- already a mobile client?
Robby: No, it will be out shortly. We're testing it at the moment.
Devin: Awesome.
Robby: It's, it, it is depending on how much you like bugs.
Devin: So, when people go to publish, for these other platforms, are they publishing it as part of, like, something within Sandbox, or is this, you're talking about they're publishing as standalone games, they've gotta set up their own, like, publisher stuff, deal with all the legal stuff, and then they publish all that?
Robby: Correct. Okay. And we're, we're essentially the e- the engine behind that helps them output to publish to those platforms in the same way that you might use an Unreal-
Devin: Yeah, I guess that's closer to what they're do- obviously, Unity's not doing something like that, but, but I w- they're trying to, it sounds like, merge a bit more of UEFN into the main engine kind of stuff and back and forth. So, I guess it's, yeah, probably closer in that respect.
When it comes to, like you're, you're trying to target more like sort of that, that upper indie, maybe even up to double A sort of publisher. Mm-hmm. Like people like y- you said people with experience game developing, things like that.
That's probably gonna be a little on the higher end of indie, stuff like that.
Robby: Or people who are accomplished vibe coders and really know how to use AI tools, right? Because that's also a skill. It's funny to hear accomplished vibe coders as a term. Well, you know what I mean. I should, I, I, I should say experienced.
Right. Yeah. People who have been doing it for a while and understand how to get the best out of an LLM. Right.
Devin: It absolutely takes experience, like you're not just gonna be like, "Oh, I'm just gonna type, you know, whatever, and then it's gonna work." You, it definitely takes people like-
Robby: Yes. It's a different kind of coding, to be honest.
Devin: Yeah. How to talk to it. - Exactly ... it's like its own language i- ironically enough. When it comes to that sort of thing, like how do you see all this, this, even this trend in general, not necessarily just what you're doing with the LLMs and like maybe building on top of engines and stuff, how do you see that affecting sort of the broader at the, the double A and lower level when it comes to like engines, publishers, platforms, like, like maybe your vision or what you just see happening on that?
Robby: Sure. I mean, I think, this is probably the biggest change to the game industry since the advent of mobile as a platform. And, and I think- Mobile as a platform for developers really just enabled indies to have access to big audiences and just, you know, it obviously made the game industry massive because it used to be much smaller in terms of audience size.
But it didn't change the way developers work in the same way that this will. So that really big, you know, triple A, y- your, mobile titles still required big studios, big budgets, et cetera. And I think one of the things that's happening now, thanks to LLMs and the coding tools, is that studios will just frankly be much, much more productive, and that increased productivity will mean that studios will be smaller.
Because one of the challenges of running any big business is literally just managing the people as anybody who's worked in a big organization knows. And it's easier to manage 20 people than it is 200, and as a result, you can spend more time focused on the product and the customers than the management task.
And so, I think a lot of studios will tend towards smaller, you know, sort of levels of staffing because the tools allow them to be as productive as they were when they had higher levels of staffing.
Devin: Well, yeah, hopefully that's the case, right? Because the staffing seems to be kind of part of the big problem where we're running into as a games industry right now when it comes to costs.
So hopefully this will help. I mean, assuming obviously LLMs costs don't somehow start to catch up to,
Robby: No ...
Devin: to the labor cost, then that becomes its own repeated same problem, right?
Robby: Yeah. No, they, they, they definitely, they definitely won't and, and if you have concerns about that, you know, download an open, open source Chinese model.
I, I recommend it. -
Devin: Certainly keeping the prices lower in that sense, right?
Robby: Yes. But I think the interesting thing though when we think about the, the structural issues, like for the labor force, I don't see us having massive game industry layoffs where essentially lots of people have to go and find other jobs outside of gaming The 200-person studio I was talking about, in my opinion, just then becomes 10 indies of 20 people, right?
Right. It's a different, it's a different kind of thing. We will organize ourselves into smaller group- groupings rather than bigger groupings, but it doesn't mean you need to leave gaming just because- Right ... there's no longer a place for a 200-person studio.
Devin: I mean, that suits game development just in the way that it's a very cyclical thing where generally people work at a big company for a while that, or one that grows into a big company for a while, and then leave and start their own company.
In fact, in the wake of, you know, like obviously a lot of the layoffs we're ... I'm just hearing, you know, every other day an announcement of a new studio from veterans of a previous studio where it's- Totally ... seems to be a cyclical thing. So, I mean, hopefully this helps accelerate that or improve that, the conditions of that the viability of people staying within the industry instead of leaving and just starting a new company.
Robby: Yes. Well, and it also means that when you start your own indie, you don't need to land a big publishing deal in order to survive, right?
Devin: Right. On that topic, like something we actually didn't touch on at all, you- we talked about code and all those things. When it comes to assets, we're talking like, you know, art, sound, all that stuff, even, even game design.
Like, how much is this, is the tooling involved in anything outside of code?
Robby: I... Yes, in terms that you can kind of BYOB of sorts, so you can bring your own assets. So, there are two aspects to assets. One is we have substantial asset libraries already from the seven years of Sandbox as a Web3 metaverse platform, and I think that gives us a great head start because once we open live to the public, you'll see that we have, you know, lots and lots of libraries of voxel assets that players can use to create cool stuff in the Sandbox art style, and that's already there.
You can plug and play, right? But also, it's important for us to work with all of the tools that everybody else is using for the, the LLM creation of whether they're video assets or they're art assets, sound assets, et cetera, because what we want to do is to be able to ingest those seamlessly.
Devin: That makes sense, so that way you're not necessarily replacing tools they might already be well accustomed to or getting good value out of- Exactly ... or already paying for at that point.
Robby: Yeah, exactly. Exactly, 'cause we, at the end of the day, we just want to be that sort of Swiss Army knife where you can bring everything else, and we're just enabling all that stuff to come together in one place.
Devin: That makes sense. So, in general then, like, looking at all of this where it's at, where it's going, especially with what you guys are trying to do-
Robby: Yeah ...
Devin: What do you see as kinda the future of especially multi-platform UGC looking like, given AI, given the current state of the game industry, given what you guys are trying to do, as well as not only that, but even just, like, the way Microsoft was talking about Minecraft as one of their big pillars now.
So, over the next, say, three to five years, maybe that's even too long, maybe the next three years might be better scope where do you see the future of this going, and what do you think it'll take to kinda get there?
Robby: So, I think that actually, digital identity is kind of at the heart of all of this.
And that digital identity is, is going to be something that is either, you know, in kind of a immutable Web3 form that, can be used in lots and lots of different venues, or, as part of one of the big existing Web2 platforms like the OAuth stuff I was talking about earlier, whether it's Google or Facebook or Twitter, you know, being the provider of the identity that you prefer to log in to use.
But I think it's those identities that will allow for content portability or for, you know, the recollection of, of game state across different platforms in the case of gaming. And I think that's a really important feature because ultimately just between, say, mobile and desktop, people are, are starting to, as players have an expectation that they can pick up where they left off, you know?
When I pause my Netflix movie, I expect that I can pick it up at home after I've been watching it on my phone on the train back from work or something like that, right? Um, and so this kind of stuff is taken as a matter of course. I, you know, I, I have to reflect my bias here. I hope that the solution to this is a Web3, you know, tokenized identity because I think that a tokenized identity is the best way for players and users, creators to own their identity.
And I think sovereign ownership of that identity yourself is really important going forward in how we all interact on the internet. But I get it, using Google or Apple login is much easier. And there is a, there is an ease of use and convenience factor to that that is difficult to ignore. But you know, we ourselves are trying to accommodate all of the above, frankly, because it's not our job to tell our customers, you know, what platforms they should be using.
Devin: Yeah, it's... I mean, that's a great point. Like, I, I do think identity is probably the biggest strength of blockchain stuff because that's literally basically all it is, right? It's a decentralized management of, you know, transactions or whatever it might be signed using an identity, and that identity is the core to that.
But I do, I do think there is obviously, like, that debate that you bring up about something like Google or something like that, in that people are pretty bad at managing their own identity. So, like, there's, there's absolutely benefits too, but there's absolutely downsides that it's not just convenient to use Google, it's also their security's probably a lot better than mine.
So, in theory, assuming I'm not the, the cause of a breach, it's a situation where, yeah, that could be a definitely a thing. And I'm sure you guys have had to deal with some of that level of identity stuff on, on the platform when it comes to, anything you might have to deal with, with the financial aspects of Sand or Land and stuff like that.
Of course ... if it's out there. But I'm kind of curious, the, the... You mentioned about, like, cloud synchronization kind of things like that. Obviously if you were talking about people publishing outside of the sandbox that's sort of its own thing. But are you looking at some ways to be able to provide some level of that cloud?
Like, for example, the way Steam provides their cloud saves and things like that is, is- Yes ... a big reason why so many indies can facilitate that, because indies are generally not going to have the availability set up their own cloud services. If you're providing multiplayer, if you're providing potential for cloud saving.
Is that something you guys are gonna do or looking at?
Robby: We would love to. I think one of the challenges always of working with any of, let's just call them walled garden platforms, is going to be how much data we can access, you know, from the game state and identity that they've, that they manage, and what they're willing to share in order to facilitate the ease of use of the customer.
We are more than happy to help with that. But of course, you know, for the reasons of one of your original questions, they may be reluctant because they're trying to keep people in their platform.
Devin: Right. Yeah, I mean, that's a good point. A- and I do think, probably something, looking at something like the way c-, Steam does cloud saves might be a good model for, like, that, that portability that they're kind of managing- Yes ... but you're facilitating. That sort of, like, hands-off way to look at it, I suppose. So, you're not thinking about, like, privacy so much perhaps. But I, I do, you do bring up an important point about the, the owning the customer thing is a big aspect currently of these other app stores and things like that, is your lack of ability to sort of be able to talk directly to your players, communicate with them, o- like, sort of own the customer, so to speak.
Yes. It is a big issue and a big part of the reason why web shops are important and things like that. Do you guys provide any, like, level of that for just normal Sandbox games? Like, if I'm making a game for Sandbox and not publishing it outside of that, is there a way then for me to have a, a more deeper relationship with my players, rather than just they can play my game?
Robby: Yeah, of course. Absolutely. And, and especially if you're willing to jump all the way down the rabbit hole and, and go into the Web3 aspect, for sure. Because then you have the ability to have your own sovereign identity system in there. You'll have your own monetization, and frankly, I mean, you can build up your own token treasury and I...
We, we can help you with treasury management. I mean, there's all this type of stuff.
Devin: So is, is the game able to then see, like, who... The, the player's like actual, like wallet identity?
Robby: Yes.
Devin: Okay. Well, 'cause then obviously the rest of that's technically public, right, at that point in, on the blockchain.
So that is, that is definitely a big differentiator versus,
Robby: Yeah ...
Devin: Using more wall- I mean- I mean- ... platforms. I think it's worth highlighting.
Robby: As, as I said, it's, it's our bias. I, I think- Right ... as a game maker, I think that would be the best way to be able to make your game and to interact with your players, but that's a particular audience who wants to interact in that way.
Devin: Right. I think it's an important one given the state of indie games and where the successes are often found is usually in community-building, and that's something I would say is very native to Web3 gaming.
Robby: Mm-hmm.
Devin: It's very community-bound, especially around things like Discord or whatever it might be kind of building those communities. So, I think, I don't know, I just feel like maybe you could highlight that feature even more if that's something that, you know, people could do just because that's such a current problem, when it comes to thinking about platforms to use. 'Cause I don't think you get anywhere like that sort of thing on Roblox even, or, or Fortnite, where you could really, like, yeah, you're, you're taking advantage of the platform, but you're not really gaining a community or relationship outside of going like... I know Roblox will try and do is like, "Hey, go, like, go to our Discord and, and link it, and then you can, like, get bonus things."
Where they have to over i- incentivize it, whereas it's a little more native to what you're doing, so. Yes. Just thought it worth noting.
Robby: Yes. Well, and, and our hope is that as long as, as long as we're the easiest or most interesting or most fun place to make your games- Yeah ... then you will continue to come back and make them and update them there.
Devin: I always hope merit wins, but the- ... the economy and the market are, are never fully rational in that aspect, so-
Robby: But that's, that's why we have in- ... that's why- That's why we have incentives also.
Devin: Right, exactly. That's where, that's where those come in. Cool. Well, just few last rapid-fire questions, just kind of a, you know.
Robby: Sure whatever, whatever you think.
Devin: Some opinionated stuff for fun, you know, as, as a CEO, it's always fun to, to get the opinions.
Robby: Let's do it.
Devin: So, uh, just first off, biggest lie, or this could just be a little bit more mis- misunderstanding if you wanna go a little softer, kinda currently being told about AI game development, as someone who's now really working in that.
Robby: Sure. I think the biggest lie is when you go on Twitter and you see people who create incredible looking l- games from one-shot prompts, and are like- Right ... "Here, you could try this prompt," and, you know, to me that's, that's... It is cool. You can do that, but it's not actually a game. It just looks- Right ... like a game for the first two minutes of watching the trailer.
And it's- Yeah ... amazing. Don't get me wrong, it's amazing, but it's not a game. And so, you know, I think making games is much easier than it used to be, but it's still a job, and it's why game- Yeah ... developers have a job.
Devin: Take, takes more than one prompt usually.
Robby: Exactly.
Devin: I, I, I actually did the... seen that recently where there was that I think it might've been around Fable or one of the other ones, there was like a Call of Duty thing published.
Yep. It was like, oh, like I basically made it, but then like he actually did share the prompt in the, GitHub. And so, I went to look- Yeah ... at it, I'm like, "Yeah, this is way too simplistic of a prompt to be anything remotely usable long-term outside of just, like, a fun thing to share on Twitter," right? So just don't trust- Yeah, exactly
Robby: Twitter posts. And, and you can have, you can have, you can have fun with it for 15 or 20 minutes, and it's amazing- Yeah ... right?
Devin: Great toy
Robby: building. Something... Yeah. It's, it's something that would've taken you weeks and weeks before to-- that you can literally do in one shot, but that's all it is.
Devin: Right. Well then, obviously with all this AI stuff pretty much hitting everything when it comes to platforms, when it comes to engines, all this stuff, which UD- UGC platform do you think is the most risk from all this?
And, and maybe- Yeah ... even as a bonus, which one do you think will benefit the most from this, outside of your own personal bias for the sandbox?
Robby: Sure. Sure. I actually think that the most successful platforms often are the ones that have the most to risk because they're kind of in the winner's seat. And at this moment in time that would be Roblox.
And I think actually Roblox has a, has a problem that is not related to all the things we've been talking about.
Devin: Right, it's not a technology problem technically.
Robby: Yeah. Because Roblox's problem, and, and, and I'm also not talking about safety and security, which is actually- Oh, okay ... their current biggest problem.
Devin: Right.
Robby: Their problem is just a fundamental problem of making games for kids. Right. Because it's a natural fact of time that you lose your audience.
Devin: Right.
Robby: They don't get bored, they grow up. And so how do you keep building that audience and bringing them on early? Like if you look at a company like Lego, Lego has pulled off the most amazing trick where there are huge communities of adults that come into Lego who might not have even played with Lego as a kid, right?
Right. And that's amazing because at the end of the day, it was invented as a toy, an educational toy. And, and so I think that Roblox has a fundamental problem where their players age out by the time they hit 15, and do they then start to have the platform cater to older or adult players? Or do they just stick and focus with the core demographic, which is we get them in when they're 5 and hold onto them till they're 15 and that's good enough, and then we'll run the cycle again?
And the problem is when you get too big, you have to start going outside your core demographic because you already own that demographic, which they've done- Right. You have to keep growing- ... very successfully ... if you're public. Exactly. Exactly. And so, and so I think that's probably why I think they face the biggest challenges because it's the challenge of success. They've been so phenomenally successful.
Devin: Yeah, that's the problem with being public, right? I guess, I guess we'll see then it'll be really interesting to watch what happens with EA because they are suddenly going to not be, in theory- Yes ... subject to that same pressure of obviously different pressures- Yes
with different owners now, but, like, not that same public, "We have to keep growing." Although I'm sure their new owners would love that. But that's not, not exactly the same, right? So that is, yeah, interesting take on that, that it's not the, the usual take, just the... And I'm sure that's a question Epic's been trying to answer for a while too, is can we get them when they're done with that?
Robby: Yes. Well, and also Fortnite, for example, is a little bit different because- Yeah ... the gameplay style started with something that was, of course, popular with preteens and teens, but is actually very popular with adults as well.
Devin: Right. As opposed to Minecraft, which is kind of, like, in a similar boat, but a different version of that sort of thing.
Robby: Yes. Yes.
Devin: I, I guess closely related to LEGOs then as well.
Robby: Exactly.
Devin: , So, last one, just a, a little sp- a spicier one, I suppose here, is Web3 gaming, dead, dormant, or just early?
Robby: Ha. So first, first let me preface that by saying we're always early. -
Devin: Always.
Robby: Always ... and, and, and generally too early. But I actually think, I think the interesting thing will be that what we will find is that as we predicted many years ago, all gaming will become Web3 gaming. However, I think that what's going to happen now is that most players aren't gonna be aware that it's actually Web3 gaming. And I think what you're gonna find is the first bits of Web3 that are gonna seep into all games are gonna be through the people that you don't expect it from, meaning that your Visa card transactions will start, and your Stripe transactions, and all of these things will run on blockchain infrastructure, just like every DocuSign that you've signed for the last five years has been run on blockchain and you didn't know it.
Devin: Oh, I did not know that. Mm-hmm. So that's- Because- ... learned something new ... '
Robby: Cause it's the, it's the best way to run cheap, secure infrastructure.
Devin: Right.
Robby: Period. That makes- Right? So why wouldn't the Web2 companies all use it to their advantage for their own- Right ... cost benefit? And, and so I think now you're gonna see all of these Web2 games are actually going to be, you know, the payment methods that they're implementing and stuff will be running on Web3 anyway it just depends on whether you, you use indie Web3, let's call it.
Devin: Right. Right.
Robby: With na- with native tokens and things like that.
Devin: Are we gonna start saying big Web3 versus little Web2?
Robby: Exactly. Well, because obviously, look at stablecoins. I mean- Right ... stablecoin volumes are, you know, the, the Tether is, like, the largest purchaser of US Treasuries in the world. And, and so-
Devin: They gotta keep ahead of this rate.
Robby: Well, yeah, there's a, there's, there's that too. Someb- somebody's gotta support the US economy. But I think, I think, you know, that ship has sailed. Web3 is very much here to stay, and, and the institutional side of Web3 as financial infrastructure, is part of the firmament already.
So, it just depends on, on the way in which it comes into gaming, but that part is inevitable.
Devin: Interesting. So, we just basically had to trick the big corporate finance underneath the payment rails to do it, and then, then the Trojan horse is in, and then everyone goes, "Well, if I already have a bank account, I might as well turn that into a wallet 'cause it's already on blockchain," and so on and so forth to kind of-
Robby: Exactly
Devin: Drive that wedge in there. Interesting. Yeah, interesting approach. I didn't, I didn't realize how far it'd gotten on the underlying technology, so that is a great thing to keep an eye out for, especially when it comes to looking for, like, news or anything around blockchain around infrastructure that's already in use in gaming.
Robby: Yes. And if you wanna see a great example of it in sort of the blending of traditional Web1, Web2, and Web3, then keep an eye on our friends at Eve, Eve Frontier.
Devin: I had a feeling you were gonna say that. Exactly, yeah. Yeah. That's, that's been a very interesting platform in, in that approach, and it seems to be, I don't know if I'd say successful or not, because it's hard to tell from, like, the, the outside, but it seems to have gotten...
It's, it's not canceled, and it's continuing to push forward, so I think that's- Yes ... interesting to watch.
Robby: Well, and also, it’s, it's, I mean, they know how to make games. They're a game maker's- Yeah ... game maker.
Devin: I mean, they're pretty much supporting a whole country alone, so.
Robby: Yes.
Devin: So, someone's gotta do it there. So that's, yeah, it's a g- good way to think about it as well.
So, we'll definitely... Good things to keep an eye on. I think that's a great way to end this is like, hey, some stuff you could actually look for as signals, - Yes ... and, and things to keep an eye on, so.
Robby: Yeah.
Devin: So, I- Outside the sandbox, of course.
Robby: To answer your question, Web3 is alive and well. It just, you know, you might not know everything is Web3, but it actually is.
Devin: Sneaky. So, it just changes clothes, and then we're like, "Oh, it's dead. I know."
Robby: Exactly.
Devin: All right. Cool. Well, thanks for, for, for joining today. Like, a lot of great, I think, insight on this as well as for people who aren't familiar with what you're doing. I know there was an announcement, but like not everyone was watching as much before just because it's been quieter. So, it's good to know continuing to push forward, doing some cool things. lot of stuff happening still in that environment. And in the, the hot UGC and AI multi-platform environment here that we're driving, you know, straight forward into in the future. So, thanks for answering those questions.
Robby: And, and I would definitely encourage everybody to come to our website because we do have, we've had an alpha creators program and now a beta creators program in place for the last couple of months, and people have been making really cool stuff. So, you should just come and check it out and, and, and see, see what you like because you can already get on there and play some of the games already.
Devin: At the very least, see what kinds of things are being built on this platform and see what- Exactly ... I guess you could kinda gauge how well the tools are working by, by the outputs over time.
Robby: Yes.
Devin: So.
Robby: Totally.
Devin: Awesome. Well, thanks again, Robby. Look forward to seeing where that goes. I'm a big fan of these, all these different platforms.
The more competitors Roblox, the better, I think, at this point, when it comes to just accessibility and discovery and, and fun things to happen. So, look forward to seeing where that goes, as it sounds like a lot of it is, is still relatively early.
Robby: It is. It is. Thanks so much, Devin. Really appreciate you taking the time today.
Devin: Thank you, and thanks everyone for listening. I will catch you guys on the next one
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