In this special GDC episode, host Kalie Moore sits down with Tiago Correia, the Founder of Save Point, and a longtime operator and investor at the intersection of gaming, media, and technology, to unpack the biggest themes emerging from this year’s Game Developers Conference (GDC) in San Francisco. They discuss the current mood across the industry, which remains cautiously optimistic but far from the exuberance of previous years. While AI dominated conversations across the conference, both note that gaming companies appear to be adopting AI more quietly than the broader tech ecosystem, in part because of the close relationship between developers and players. The conversation explores how AI is already lowering the barriers to game creation, enabling solo developers and small teams to build experiences that previously required entire studios.
Kalie and Tiago also dive into the growing momentum behind user-generated content platforms like Roblox and Fortnite UEFN, which many see as one of the few clear growth stories in the current market. As traditional studios face longer development cycles and tighter funding conditions, UGC ecosystems are extending the lifespan of games and creating new opportunities for creators and IP holders alike. The episode closes with a candid look at industry sentiment, from lower attendance at GDC to changing expectations from investors, who now want to see traction and community before funding. Despite the challenges, Tiago remains optimistic that AI and new creative tools could unlock an unprecedented wave of independent creators and experimental games in the years ahead.
We’d like to thank Overwolf for making this episode possible! Whether you're a gamer, creator, or game studio, Overwolf is the ultimate destination for integrating UGC in games! You can check out all Overwolf has to offer at https://www.overwolf.com/.
This transcript is machine-generated, and we apologize for any errors.
Kalie: Hi, I'm Kalie Moore and welcome to the Naavik Gaming Podcast. We are here live from San Francisco at GDC, which is happening this week. I think this episode is gonna drop on Monday. So, I am here with Tiago, who spent 16 years at the intersection of gaming and media and tech pioneering UGC strategy at Warner Music Group and backing companies like Overwolf and Dapper Labs. I think you've said you've been to GDC the past four years, is that correct?
Tiago: Yeah, um, not necessarily four exact consecutive years, but four GDCs. Yes.
Kalie: Got it. So, we are gonna jump into the trends that we are seeing here at GDC, what's changed year over year. But first, Tiago, you are here and starting a new venture. So maybe you can start by telling us a little bit about that.
Tiago: Sure. Uh, shall I give introduction to myself as well?
Kalie: Please.
Tiago: Sure. So, I'm Tiago Correia, and um, I have been many years in the intersection of media, entertainment and technology. I am a, uh, advisory board member for Acclaim, the legendary nineties publisher that, uh, was brought back last year by a group of industry veterans to much fanfare and jubilation. I add, um, I am an advisor of, uh, FOV Ventures, which is a frontier tech, um, VC fund based in the UK and Finland. And then I'm also a venture partner at Griffin Gaming Partners, which is the world's largest VC specialized in gaming.
I am now starting a new company, which is called Save Point, and it is very much in the intersection of music and gaming, which is the, let's call it the spaced little niche space that I've been operating out of in the last few years since my stint at Warner Music and, and since. And it is the first ever copyright acquisition vehicle for video game soundtracks.
Kalie: I love that. Can you give us a little, maybe a bit of an example of total addressable market size? Like how big is the video game soundtrack market?
Tiago: So, this is obviously a subject for debate. Um, there is only one piece of publicized research about this, uh, out there that says that the, uh, video game sound and music space is $1.6 billion. Um, I would say that for the market that we're looking at, um, the sum I would say is probably gonna be $250 million annual revenue 'cause people are consuming these. Um, I think it's a, it's a very common assumption to just say that music is an afterthought.
And certainly that's how the gaming industry has seen it as such. Sometimes just as a cost, sometimes it's just something that they needed to get out because, hey, we need music or sound or audio into this game. Some obviously have, uh, taken a little bit more care and love and finding good composers or good recording artists.
But even after that, the production side, there's very little that's done post. And so I actually think that there's so much opportunity if you give these soundtracks the, the love and care that they deserve to bring it to even more audiences than already consume them right now.
Kalie: Well, it sounds very exciting. Thank you for sharing your new venture, and I'd love to have you on a full episode where we could really dive deeper. But the reason we're here today is for our, our GDC and actually your GDC hot takes because I hear you have, I hear you have some spicy comments. So, as you mentioned, you've attended GDC for four years.
I think I've attended for five years, but also not in a row. This is my first year back in, uh, the last three years. Yeah. It's, it's been a while. And I wanna start at a macro level, like what are, what are you seeing trend-wise that's changed year-over-year, and also what's the overall sentiment like that you're seeing?
Tiago: I think every GDC that I've been to, the question of sentiment has been, uh, a prevalent one. Um, it's, it's funny because I've seen a few changes over the years. Um, I remember. I don't know if it was the first one that I attended, it may have been the first one that I attended where companies were very decidedly clear with me, straight off the bat by saying, just letting you know I am not a web3 blockchain company. Because the assumption was that everyone was either a company in that space or wanting to meet companies in that space. And that was a, I mean obviously I don't, again, dunno if it was my first GDC, but it certainly was something that I noticed, not very common in other conferences that I attend to, that people have to very much specify, just letting you know if this is a waste of time. Like, I'm not a blockchain company. And naturally the conversation in recent years has turned to artificial intelligence and machine learning.
I mean, I think everyone is talking about it. It's funny because perhaps the first mini hot take in some ways the topic of conversation today in GDC is still AI.
Kalie: Yeah.
Tiago: But if I look at other investment conferences or events that I've been to, some of that is already shifting to other areas, namely, for example, the fence, and there have been some examples of, you know, multiple overlaps between gaming and defence, right? Whether that's because of mill sims, or military simulations, back in the day to the, the, the normal example of simulators and simulations and simulator infrastructure and, but also the fact that from a hardware component, controllers are basically shared across the different fields, right?
If you look at a drone controller is very much based on gaming controllers and so much so the interface is UIs, et cetera, from the defence is drawn quite a lot from gaming, um, as a trendsetter of a technology industry that it's always been so I've not heard much of defence or defence related, uh, investments here at GDC.
Kalie: I was just gonna ask you, so the only, we were talking investments earlier before the podcast started, and the only good investment I have made in the last two years is Rhine Metal. I live in Germany, so, uh, my, my defence stock is performing. All of my cryptos turn to shit, and I totally agree with you.
Like in Europe specifically, not necessarily in the gaming, there's a lot of talk of defence technology right now, and I think you make a great point of the intersection with gaming. I have not seen or heard any of that here, except one VC was saying they might work that into their thesis, but it was very early days.
Have you seen any companies at that intersection at GDC?
Tiago: Not at this GDC. Last year, I met one, but just generally, I think the, the VCs, you know, we're seeing some VCs or some funds sort of have that exposure to both or transition from gaming into the fans. And so, I, I was just surprised that the, at least the conversation that I've been a part of at GDC hasn't caught up yet with that. Yeah. Even though the investors and the VCs have, um, everyone still is here talking about AI. Which again, there's nothing wrong with that, of course, there's still massive opportunities and massive interest in that space as well.
Kalie: To me, it still feels like it's almost early days of AI, though within gaming. At GDC, it's funny 'cause you know, GDC is in San Francisco, which is obviously the heart of the AI industry. So, when I've been here I've had GDC related meetings, but I've also met with different, you know, AI, AI companies that happen to be based here, which in a lot of ways seems further along than the conversations I'm having within the gaming AI space. And I don't know if that's, I mean, it could just be who I'm talking to, but also the consumers for the most part, still hate AI. So, the gaming companies that I've talked to here are adopting AI very quickly doing some incredible things with it, but they haven't been as vocal about how they're doing it. Because it's very off putting to their users. Have you seen the same thing?
Tiago: Absolutely. I don't. Maybe. It's not also the users but, um, a collection of vocal minority of users that may be hyper connected to the industry itself as well.
Kalie: Yeah.
Tiago: Um, 'cause you know, for, for good or bad, better or worse, I think there is a high degree of concentration in the gaming industry of professionals who game and gamers who are in some way, shape or form or have been professionals. So, it's quite symbiotic, um, relationship overlapping Venn diagram between the consumption world and the, the production world more so than, say, for example, other creative industries like for example, film or music. And so that's why I'd say there's a little bit more caution when you mentioned that they're using AI, but they're certainly not talking about using AI.
Kalie: I personally, coming from the Calms background, right. I think it's a really big missed opportunity, not just in gaming, but the AI industry overall. There's a lot of, there's a lot of fear. I think it was NBC just released a study that only that 26% of Americans view anything to do with AI favorable in any way.
Like people are terrified, and I think there's a right to be like when things change so quickly. It is scary. But the stuff that I'm personally excited about when I see AI in games is the creation that it enables, like on different UGC platforms, maybe you weren't a developer before, but you can have these AI tools that can build out these worlds.
So, I'm encouraging the, some of the companies or studios that I meet with to, I think there is a way that you can tell your AI story where it really adds value to both the people who are playing the games and then you know, the mod authors or the people who are creating experiences on top of games that have access to tools that they've never had before.
Tiago: I think the story that you've talked about and touched upon is the right one, namely the fact that solo developers always existed in this industry, and they've made some fantastic, yeah, games and creations, but the journey, the pipeline, the time and effort that a solo developer would've had to put a few years ago is very different than the one that it has done today.
And I don't think that you will see anyone. You know, poo-pooing against a solo developer just because they used AI to somehow shorten that journey. And to make the effort a little bit more bearable if they always knew that they were going to be a sole developer. Right. Uh, I think the, the concern that a lot of people voice around is when companies that aren't sole developers, but rather have employed historically, uh, resources, use AI to effectively displaced jobs and shorten that amount of resource needed. So, I, I, I agree that there are different sides of the same story and one is very positive and I think is still not yet being talked too much about. Yeah, despite that pipeline already existing and, and starting to materialize a little bit more. And the large percentage of the, uh, talk around it still is concentrated around the job displacement. I also think that, um, this is not necessarily just relating to gaming. I spoke about this in a different event around the creative industries. My view on what is happening with AI around job displacement is that, um, there is a lot of focus on job displacement.
And there should be, because it is obviously a structural concern around how economies of countries and societies, um, are, are, are working, but my main concern is not about job displacement because every, every technology will include job displacement in some shape or form. It is the mindset shift that, um, the communities and societies that are impacted by this, just broadly, everyone, so to speak, would need to have, will need to have when this, um, starts really kicking in if of course it already has kicked in.
Kalie: Yeah, it has.
Tiago: And I think the preeminent thought is still, okay, I have lost my job. Or, um, you know, I no longer have this contract or freelance, et cetera. Let me find another one. And that's fair. And that's fine. But I think there just maybe won't be that many contracts and jobs, um, as there were, and certainly in the terms that were before. And so the mindset shift that I think needs to happen and maybe yet is not happening is how can I use these tools to create a company that, or, uh, you know, a venture or some sort of product or service that allows me to get revenue. Yeah. Right. Um, again, for the better or for worse, these companies allow, sorry, these, these technologies allow for smaller teams to exist, but also entrepreneurial endeavors to be much easier to start up.
Kalie: Absolutely.
Tiago: Much easier to go out to market with and to potentially start generating some sort of income and revenue, and I think that's the mindset shift that I'm fearful of. I'm not commenting on gaming specifically, just broadly speaking.
Kalie: No, I hear you. One of visiting, so I went to the expo for the first time this year.
Usually as I think. How was it? You do too. I'll, we'll get into that. Um, but usually I am, I am here for the meetings around GDC. I've never had an expo pass before, and so it was really interesting. I, I only attended two sessions. I attended one on the state of games journalism. As a PR person, I've seen so many, uh, games, websites, shut down and we've also seen a lot of really interesting substack bring up of people who have been laid off from different, um, from different outlets. So, I saw that and I was surprised by how many young people were in the audience, and a lot of them asked questions. And the questions that came up is, I am a young journalist. How am I gonna get started in this industry?
And I think, you know, we talk about job displacement, and it is the entry level jobs, but I think once again, not just in the games industry agreeing with you, it has to be a total shift to entrepreneurship. But to me, I think it'd actually be really exciting to be getting started in your career because you can really make whatever you want, which when I was getting started in my career, wasn't wasn't possible at all. And I know that's really scary, but if you have the creativity or if in gaming, if you're part of like such a specific culture and you know what kind of mod you want to build and you're in touch with a specific game and a specific culture, I think ultimately there's going to be a lot more success for a lot of people.
But it will look very different than it did when I think you and I were both starting out. In our careers. I don't wanna date you, I don't know your age, but, um, I, I would be willing to bet it looked different when you were starting out too.
Tiago: Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, uh, I'd like to consider myself an entrepreneurial person. And I did start projects, um, over the years. Some commercial, some just creative, some just, you know, social, but, um. If I had access to these tools, if I had access to these um, technologies, I would've done the same things, but in a much easier state. Yeah. And I am, I'm, I'm always curious to think about what would I have been able to achieve because I would've had to spend less effort doing the things that I did.
But that's just me because I am, at least, I'd like to think myself as someone that is entrepreneurial and, and, and likes the startup stuff. And I hope that that sentiment is gonna become more widespread with these technologies.
Kalie: Have you seen any AI companies at GDC that have been really interesting?
Tiago: There's one. I met 'em from before, um, but they just moved here to San Francisco, um, called Omea, OMEA.
Kalie: Mm-hmm.
Tiago: Um, you know, I don't think that they are a gaming company, so to speak. They are a foundational model company, um, and they are choosing to do a different type of financial foundational model, which isn't based on LLM structure and therefore the first application for it because of the nature, and I won't get into the details. But because of the nature of how the foundational model is structured, is best applied, or at least in this case, it's a good first application for storytelling. The output around, uh, storytelling is not as underwhelming as we have seen LLMs be.
And it is indeed slightly more out of the box thinking and um, not just text prediction over the previous typed text, et cetera. And so, because of that, they've started with a, an application test application, which is an interactive audio-based storytelling game that showcases that foundational model.
Kalie: Oh, that's really interesting. I met, and I don't know the name of the company, but uh, the founder's name was Wilson and I will link it in the show notes. And Wilson has the most interesting story of anyone I've met at GDC. He previously started a very successful, get ready for this, Carnival and he ran it for years, like throughout, throughout the U.S. And then of course when the pandemic happened, apparently carnivals were shut down as well. Um, and now apparently, apparently I wrote out the pandemic in, in Europe where we had a lot of restrictions. Um, but he has built agents that go inside Roblox and give really specific information about the user. And I think there's a ton of implications for that, particularly on the brand side of things. So, I know it's early stage for him. I got a very quick demo, but, uh, that was an application that I hadn't seen before that I think yeah, could be very interesting.
Tiago: I, I've also not seen that yet. And I've spent a significant amount of time on the Roblox ecosystem. So yeah, I'd love to meet them.
Kalie: And I mean, I think you and I, we were, we met I think at, uh, the SEG three conference, so I know you do a lot with brands and gaming too, and I feel like one of the things that continuously comes up of why brands aren't in gaming more is the measurement is still a little bit behind, right.
Tiago: Yeah, I mean, I think that's always been a problem with a significant number of, um, some of the digital marketing. Non-performance based approaches. And certainly, on the video side, there's been attempts to try and quantify attribute, but in Roblox or UGC gaming, or just say gaming, there have been some very interesting companies over the years that have brought the technologies from, um, ad attribution and other, um, parts of the, of the world to gaming.
I think in Roblox, I've seen quite a few of them even before Roblox launched their own ad infrastructure. There was a company that was, um, an ad network style company that even allowed to understand and quantify how, what percentage of an ad or a sponsored placement was in the field of view of the player for the duration of the session time. That's the kind of detailed information that I think brands or other advertisers would naturally like to have when being present in these types of places.
Kalie: Let's shift gears a little bit 'cause we're, now we're talking UGC platforms, and I think there's been a lot of doom and gloom at GDC from what I've seen, but one standout positive has been UG people building within the UGC space.
I know Roblox is here, UFN is here, Overwolf is here, and are doing quite well and there are a lot of studios, WonderWorks for instance, we ran into yesterday, um, who have really exciting bright numbers. Are you seeing a lot of still excitement and hype around UGC?
Tiago: Yes, I think so. I mean, I'm biased because I'm very much in the world of UGC and, and love it. But, um, I think it's interesting to see that, whereas a few years ago, UGC was seen as not even the stepchild, but rather just. Let the kids do their thing and you know, they're there and we're here, we're the adults in the room kind of thing. I think it was last year that Roblox did a grouping, a gathering of the partner program partners at their headquarters in San Mateo. And because of that, willingly or unwillingly, they brought a lot of the developers of the Roblox ecosystem, at least obviously the partner program ones to GDC, and I think some of them had not come to GDC first. It was their first time, so to speak. Again, I am, I'm not saying that that is the defining moment that changed it. But I believe because of that, um, and I was talking to Steven from Max Power Gaming as well recently about this, just yesterday, that I think a lot of them started saying, oh, I want to go to GDC. So, this year, I've certainly seen more UGC creators, certainly more UGC site events. Yeah, absolutely than, than previous years. And that is a trend that I will say will continue happening because, you know, these folks are studios that are, or publishers that are growing up and, and building, uh, and, and naturally they, they want to be where the gaming industry, um, aggregates. I don't know if there's going to be a UGC-oriented style, uh, conference, the size of GDC ever.
Kalie: Maybe not the size of GDC, but did you see the World Builders Summit that's happening for the first time in April in LA. It's really focused on the creators that are building within UGC.
So, I mean, Overwolf has someone going, Roblox has someone going UFN, but it's a lot of the creators and not just the huge studios, which they have all the, like the Grow Your Garden Studio, um, but also individual creators who are building experiences played by millions of players. So I think it's exciting and I'm, I've been kind of waiting for an event like this to happen for, for years.
Tiago: Me too. I didn't know that that was a thing, so.
Kalie: Oh, yeah. Yeah. I'll, we'll connect. I mean, it might be worth you attending too. They seem to have a, a lot of really, really interesting people, even for their first year, but I think we'll see a lot more of that in the future.
Tiago: I, I'm looking forward to that because, uh, there is, you know, just by the name that we call them creators, right? We're sort of equating them to content creators in some shape or form. To be fair, they are studios and I think that that barrier is still existing, but this year at GDC, I think there has been a lot more interest from the so-called non UGC studios and non UGC publishers to talk and engage and, and bring the UGC studios and creators onto the fold. Maybe because that is the bright spot, maybe because there's a lack of opportunities and funding and interest on the other side, on the traditional gaming side. But I have seen that there is a better acceptance for the first time and certainly their willingness to come after last year's Roblox, uh, partner program means.
Kalie: But I also see from the traditional studios, uh, they're seeing that they need to extend the shelf life of their game. Right? And how you do that by creating more experiences. And when you have a dev team of, you know, 20, 30, 40, you just can't feed that need from, from the gamers who love your game.
So, if you can integrate UGC in a safe way, like what Overwolf's doing with Hogwarts Legacy or with craft in's Enzo, to me it seems like a no-brainer. So yeah, I think people are seeing it as a, as a pipeline for more revenue and retention.
Tiago: Also, I think it's also driven by the fact that traditional, um, rights soldiers, you know, think of, you know, film studios, et cetera, which may have done a mobile game or may have done, you know, a licensed PC game, even though those are rare, certainly are doing a lot in Roblox and, and, and UGC overall. So Roblox four, nine, you know, Overwolf, et cetera. And so that's naturally taken note by the game studios. Yeah. That, uh, would've probably gotten those licenses before and that's why they're saying, oh, okay, let's take a look at that.
Kalie: So, I think we've covered like the only upside that I'm seeing or the positive moments have been around AI in UGC and there from what I've seen, there does seem to be a lot of fear, particularly in game studios when it comes to raising follow on rounds. Have you seen more negative sentiment or where have you seen kind of doom and gloom this GDC.
Tiago: So that was going back to the first question around the sentiment, right?
Kalie: Yeah.
Tiago: Um, so it's very clear that this GDC is much thinner in terms of attendance than last year for sure. And previous years. I am yet to see, but maybe I have, uh, not been the, uh, in the right places, the festival side of, or the festival gaming or the consumer-oriented side of this event. And what I've noticed is that studios have decided to not come predominantly studios.
Some for political reasons, some, uh, boycotting on, on the actual state of it being here in San Francisco and the, the prices and the being tone deaf to the state of the industry. The hot take I think is that those are in some cases, you know, convenient, um, excuses. That's concerning, right, because I, I'd say you'd want GDC to continue being a, a, a grouping of, of these studios and develop and publishers and uh, and investors who I've seen stay here and still come here are, uh, investors. They've certainly are, are still coming, maybe obviously, 'cause they have the, um, the, the money to do so and so.
I've never been to Dice. And so I can't comment too much on that, but it feels like because the developers have decreased in quantity. And investors have con, you know, stayed consistent. It feels like the density of investors in this GDC is higher than ever, even though they're probably not absolute levels, more of investors. And so, it feels like it's a little bit more like DICE in that way than, than A GDC. But again, I haven't been to DICE, so I can't comment. But the mood is, I'd say not the greatest. I think everyone is still living in uncertain terms. This is now probably the third GDC where we see the question of, oh, we're this year is gonna change.
But it hasn't changed yet. A lot of that is driven by the fact that there were unreasonable valuations and reasonable investments and, uh, and re and reasonable fundraisers that were made unsustainable due to the downturn. Also I think a lot of that is down to the fact that there was an oversupply of games in comparison to the, uh, uh, number, the demand and the number of playable playing hours that consumers are expending.
Because again, the unit economics of gaming is such that these are pieces that require in some cases, but most an average a big time commitment in comparison to other content formats like music or film. There's just been a confluence of variables, some of them that we've mentioned before, like AI that have made the sentiment still beyond the doom and gloom. Publishers, for example, I'd say are coming, but are cautious.
Kalie: Yeah.
Tiago: On, on where and how to deploy, I think developers are trying to be creative about how they're going to their business. What I've seen is that there is a, a significant increase in project financing capital.
Kalie: Yeah.
Tiago: And that's a shift certainly coming from the VC or a venture side that, um, may have not achieved the, the returns that we're hoped for, but are still wanting to deploy, um, capital and be exposed to this growing and well growing to this fantastic industry to some extent, obviously growing. But in a different type of model.
Kalie: Yeah, I, are you talking more about like the UA financing?
I feel like I've been, that's one, heard. Hearing about that everywhere. This GDC and every fundraise, most of the fundraisers that we do, the fundraise announcements that we do now has a component of UA financing. And two years ago, we never saw that in an announcement.
Tiago: Yeah. So, UA funding, last mile financing. For, you know, just pure straight up project financing for studios that want to do self-publish or already have a publishing service partner like Shadow Publishing, et cetera. Seeing more of that.
Kalie: Mm-hmm. So, actually let's dive a little bit deeper into that. What does a fundable company or studio we can go with either look like in 2026, and how does that look like? What, what's changed from three years ago?
Tiago: This is not gonna be a fair answer in any way. I think because of what I mentioned before, that the pipelines of reduction are much more streamlined these days, t's much easier to go out with a product to market. Yeah. I mean, I'm staying with a friend, which is operating in a completely different field in the healthcare, uh, health tech space. And he was showing me the product of his new company and the product looks like, you know, 3D rendering visualizations of molecules and proteins. And that interface was built in less than six weeks.
Kalie: Wow.
Tiago: Exactly.
Kalie: Yeah. That's…
Tiago: The time to a demoable product is so short these days that I think from an investment perspective, the expectation has also shifted to. You don't need to have a good product, you need to have users.
Kalie: Yeah.
Tiago: You need to have audience, you need to have community. And I think that's what has now shifted since three years ago. Is that where previously, you know, having a, a fantastic playable demo in the case of a game or a great tool was perhaps interest enough to peak the interest of a investor. Now, I think, the bar has been elevated to the next logical step of that journey, which is you need to have a community, if not already users.
Kalie: Yeah, but I also think, I mean, I a hundred percent agree with what you're saying with AI, but I also think a lot of that comes from a lot of the studios that were funded in the Pandemic when money was free and available because they had worked at the great AAA companies before and that was enough to get 40, 50 million.
And even if you build a beautiful game, it doesn't mean that players are going to come. Most players are still playing their favorite games from seven years ago.
Tiago: That's an interesting topic. I don't want to interrupt
Kalie: No, no, no. Please go ahead. I, I think that, you know, I, I think a lot of investors lost a lot of money on those deals and now need to approach if they're, if a studio is even, does it even need to be venture backed? Right? And if it does, what are the signals that are gonna show this type of success that, where they'll have those returns that they need for their LPs?
Tiago: Yeah, I think that, to comment on how players are still playing their favorite game from seven years, like there's a, actually a recent post about this, I don't know whom, so we'll have to attribute it later, but I do like to credit the people that I mentioned. that talked about that, how they had reduced, you know, from 400 games to four games or something like that. And it was interesting 'cause I, I see a lot of that in, in, in times of crisis, just broadly, not gaming industry crisis, just instability, uncertainty where content and entertainment is seen as comfort food. And so, you probably want to go back to the things that you love, to make you feel good about yourself. So that you can face the hardships of life out there and games is, I think a, a great example of that, which is why, you know, one of the reasons, that's why I think, uh, music in games, video game music is also a great example of that type of comfort food because you go, go back to the soundtracks that you loved and make you feel good about the eras of playing. I dunno, in my case, SIM City 3000, for example, I, there's a little bit of that reduction of, of games played in the equation of what makes this an investible product by looking at the signals that will then say, is this going to be enough to be someone's comfort food in 10 years time? Are the signals there? And, you know, a very classic metric, but wishlists on Steam on the case of PC is a great example and I know of a few companies more on the tooling and infrastructure side that try to get a better, not dashboard, but certainly set of analytics around wish listing and around pre-development, sorry, pre-launch signals so as to make the decisions around development more guided, but also I'd say presenting a better picture to publishers presenting a better picture to investors and other financing partners.
Kalie: I wanna touch one more thing on the comfort food angle, because one of the people I was most excited to meet here is the Neo pet guys are here.
Tiago: I saw them at GDC walking around,
Kalie: Yeah, yeah. Which I love, love the old school nostalgia game. So, I was particularly excited to meet them this GDC.
Tiago: Have you?
Kalie: Very, very, uh, briefly, but I, I have a meeting, uh, tonight, so I know I can geek out on, keep us posted on Neo Pets.
I wanna totally shift gears this, it touches a little bit with UGC, but a couple of years ago you wrote what you called the Third Age of Transmedia. And that's the idea that cultures become scalable and now we are entering a new era of like cross-platform storytelling. We've already talked about how AI has changed content creation and gaming is kind of in the middle of that. How has that thesis held up? What did you get wrong?
Tiago: So, first of all, I love the question because, uh, so thank you.
It shows that you've done a lot of research, but also I love being questioned about things that I wrote like three years ago and saying like, Hmm, is this still valid? I have to say, there's a lot of things that I got wrong. But the broad underlying element of the thesis, I think still holds true.
And that is that actually it's connected to the comfort food angle. So, it's, don't think it's a big shift. The desire for people to just consume more of what they love is something that is normal in people. Like, don't get me wrong, I think consumption desires are about new things, but also about things that they know they love. If you look at food, there's a lot of that. And so, in forms of entertainment, there's naturally a lot of that. In gaming, there's gonna be a lot of that. With regards to the third age of transmedia, the things that I got wrong are the fact that I certainly assumed that there was going to be a bigger structural emphasis on creating companies that weren't designed based on production pipelines, but rather on stood up of a particular IP.
Kalie: Yeah.
Tiago: Because these production pipelines had become more easy to expand into. Less technically requiring, uh, again, because of the many things that we've talked about before. And so, I was expecting there to be jus IP companies that just so happened to them. Let's say start in books, but then go into YouTube or go then from YouTube to mobile game or to Roblox games or something very similar to standup. And then eventually would get into, uh, a PC game and eventually a film, right? And along the way, they would go and do a soundtrack.
So those companies we're still seeing some of them being created, but I've yet to see some that have really risen. Maybe there's not been enough time to do so, but there's companies out there that are, are, are doing this type of an approach and I'm happy to give some examples, but the things that I think still hold true is that there is value in consumers. Players and users and whatever we want to, and fans being given the opportunity to explore the stories and the games and, and the worlds that they love through other mediums.
Kalie: Totally.
Tiago: Again, I wouldn't be saying this if I didn't think true music is a classic example of that. But we're seeing so many adaptations of games into film and tv. You know, I met the Story Kitchen guys.
Kalie: I was just gonna say, we, the Story Kitchen guys are here. And not only are they just doing, you know, traditional games like Lower Cross, Tomb Raider, they're doing, Steal a Brain Rot, right? They're doing Roblox experiences on film, which I think is a big shift towards what we thought trans media would look like.
Tiago: Absolutely. And so, I think the, that underlying element of the thesis, I think still holds true. Even if the economic agents haven't been built and certainly elevated in the way that I thought that they would've.
Kalie: So now that we've, uh, gone through some past predictions, let's talk some future predictions. If you had to bet on one platform shift, whether it's spatial computing, agentic workflow, UGC, what are you watching more, most closely? Like, what are you most excited for?
Tiago: Yeah. Well, boring answer, but there's, there's an element of how AI is not necessarily helping the production pipeline, but rather allowing new game typologies to exist.
So, for example, I mentioned EA that's a foundational model company, but just because they have created something new on the deep layer of the technology that has seeped into allowing themselves to create a new, not certainly type of game, but a new approach to game development. Another company is Iconic Games, which is London-based. They're using voice and NLP as a means to, to allow a new format of game. Let's call it a voice command game. That's the kind of stuff that I'm interested in to see in the gaming space I'd say in the short term, because these technologies are here, um, there's just a bit of a jump to try and make the technology layer applied to a particular project and then have a particular creative of the many projects that get created to be elevated into a commercial and critical success. That's on the short term, I think. I mean, obviously in the midterm I'm still bullish on spatial overall, but that's going to take…
Kalie: Takes time.
Tiago: A hot minute, basically.
Kalie: Yeah. Um, okay. What, I'm gonna actually change our last question.
Tiago: Oh.
Kalie: What's been your favorite GDC moment this week? I'm keeping it broad, intentionally.
Tiago: Um. I mean, someone gave me a lemon business card.
Kalie: What, like an actual, like physical?
Tiago: Actual lemon.
Kalie: Okay.
Tiago: Yes. So, this is a company called Lemon Sound which is very interesting in, in my space of music and games. They're a marketplace for composers, you know, music composers and, and music producers to apply to be part of a game, um, score. Or game musical direction. And the converse element of that is that a game developer, like a studio and in these studio et cetera, goes in and says, Hey, we have a new game. We want a soundtrack or a score for this. Who wants to, to, to come and, and, and bid for this? Um, and their business card is a lemon. Literally a lemon.
Kalie: Experimental marketing works.
Tiago: That's fine.
Kalie: Gets you out on podcasts.
Tiago: Talking about it.
Kalie: And then is there anything else that we haven't covered GDC trend-wise that you'd like to touch on?
Tiago: Not totally new, but I've certainly seen more companies start talking about Asia distribution
Kalie: Oh, interesting.
Tiago: As an angle to help game developers and, and certainly the interest from the other side is, well, of course we'll take the money. Right? Because it's, it's how we can expand and maximize the, the return on an already previously sunk investment. So, I think there's that type of service. And I have a, a good friend doing that with their own company. I've seen more of and more awareness that that is something that can be done and certainly more service providers here in GDC.
Kalie: Okay. That's really interesting. I haven't had those conversations yet. And then I'm gonna ask you a question and we, we also can cut this out if you don't, if you don't like a response.
Tiago: I love when a question has the disclaimer of it's, it can be cut out.
Kalie: Are you worried about the games industry?
Tiago: That's a great question. I'm worried about all the industries.
Kalie: Yeah.
Tiago: I am not necessarily specifically more or less worried about the games industry.
Kalie: That's interesting.
Tiago: I'm worried about all the industries, and I mean, not just all the creative industries, I'm worried about all the industries in some way, shape, or form. I would say that the creative industries are what I'm worried less about than other industries. The reason being, it comes from a, a longstanding idea of mind that in the future of, of course, more automation and AI.
There has been a lot of conversation about we won't need to be productive because we may just have QBI or subsidy like style of compensation be given to us. Right now, I not innately qualified to discuss UBI, to be honest. Because it is touching on so many different aspects of how a society is organized, but also how we as individuals face our own fate psychologically speaking, right?
What, what does that mean for not just our ambition, but our drive to socialize or our drive to have family or so many other things that get impacted when your goal is different than what it has been for millennia to some extent that it is akin to the change that happened in society when we moved from hunter gatherers. So I, the, the longstanding little belief that I've had is I am, I'm worried about the impact that has, but if anything, if that indeed is the future that many are saying that it can be, which again, I'm not saying it is, I would say the creative industries are going to be winning for the sole reason that there is a significant amount of pleasure and fulfilment extraction for the action of being creative and for the action of creating something. And so, if for some reason large swaths of, or the entire population indeed gets millions of hours, that now can be used up in a way that haven't been done before, I think a lot of them are going to be, not, not all of them, a lot of them are gonna be used for consumption.
Kalie: Yeah.
Tiago: But a lot of them are gonna be used for creation. And so, even if they are, even if we take the commercial angle out of it, just from a pure artistic and creative and rich, diverse amount of creative output that we'll see, maybe that is going to be a golden era of so many amazing pieces of art and entertainment and content, like there has never been before. Discoverability will still be a problem, but you know, we're taking commercial commerciality out of this equation that's going too philosophical.
Kalie: No, I actually think that is a beautiful answer to end on. So, thank you so much for joining me and having our GDC chat, and thank you to everyone tuning in on the Naavik podcast.
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