Exploring the $70M Esports World Cup

The esports industry has heavily evolved over the past few years, and big moves continue to occur – especially out of Saudi Arabia.

In this episode, host Aaron Bush is joined by Mike McCabe, COO of the Esports World Cup Foundation, which runs a massive Riyadh-based annual esports festival. It’s gearing up for its second annual event in July, which will host 25 tournaments over 7 weeks with a whopping $70 million prize pool.

We chat about the global state of esports, Saudi Arabia’s continued ambitions, and where the industry is headed next. We also dig into the Esports World Cup, including its massive scale, logistics, non-profit ambitions, and how it aspires to leave an evergrowing impact on bringing esports mainstream in the future.

We’d like to thank Heroic Labs for making this episode possible! Thousands of studios have trusted Heroic Labs to help them focus on their games and not worry about gametech or scaling for success. To learn more and reach out, visit https://heroiclabs.com/?utm_source=Naavik&utm_medium=CPC&utm_campaign=Podcast

We’d also like to thank TikTok for making this episode possible. Whether you’re launching or scaling, TikTok supports full-funnel growth with creative impact, always-on engagement, and advanced measurement. Learn more at https://bit.ly/tiktokmorelevels

This transcript is machine-generated, and we apologize for any errors.

Aaron: Hi everyone. I'm Naavik co-founder and your host today, Aaron Bush.

Over the years, we've had all sorts of interesting conversations about eSports on this podcast. We've talked with the leaders of competing eSports teams, event platforms, and of emerging tools and services. And along the way it's been abundantly clear that eSports is not only undergoing massive recalibration and change, especially with all that we see in the West, but the story isn't the same around the world.

Saudi Arabia, for example, has remained bullish on eSports and continues to make outsize investments that will leave a mark on the entire industry. One of those investments is through the eSports World Cup Foundation, which is building a massive annual event, pulling teams and fans together around the world, all backed by a $70 million prize pool. Clearly, the world of eSports continues to evolve and to help me break down the latest in how the eSports World Cup fits into it all is my guest today, Mike McCabe, the COO of the eSports World Cup Foundation. Mike, welcome to the podcast.

Mike: Thanks very much, Aaron. Lovely to meet you. Sorry we can't be in the same room to do this.

Aaron: That is totally fine. We're, across the world at, from each other at the moment, but I'm, I'm sure the conversation is gonna be super interesting nonetheless. And Mike, I am excited to dig into all things eSports with you and we'll spend most of today's conversation on that. But before we get there, I'd actually like to spend a couple minutes learning from your past because before eSports, you spent time doing other interesting things at other notable companies inside and outside of gaming. To start at EA you received global exposure and were involved in important franchises like FIFA. And I'm curious, what did you learn about operating in emerging markets through EA and at the forefront of emerging trends that set you up to succeed later as a games industry leader?

Mike: Yeah, it was, and look, it was a really interesting time. I, I had the, the fortune to be part of EA both from a publishing and a, and a studio standpoint, and, really help build out both the publishing but also the studio capabilities in, in a lot of emerging markets and building products specifically for those markets.

I think the most interesting piece for me was, was really around the product. And, and actually tuning both the products and the live service really to support,, the needs, the desires, the aspirations of those players in those emerging markets. Because it was, it was quite different the way that people wanted to play with the game, some of the mechanics that we used as well. So that was the, the really enduring piece for me was, was identifying, talking to the community, understanding, looking at the products that were being successful in those markets, and then taking a, a product like, like FIFA or EAFC as it is now, and, and actually building something specifically for the market.

And that was a, a unique opportunity and it's, it's rare, to be able to do that with such a big franchise. But it was great that that EA were really open to that. We built a, a dedicated version of, of FIFA at the time to be able to operate in markets like Southeast Asia and a, a slightly tuned version for Korea, and the same for China as well.

Aaron: Awesome. And so after EA, or I guess between stint EA, you're at Nike where you oversaw digital products and, and innovation. And Nike obviously isn't a, a gaming business. But are there any compelling lessons you learned from Nike about winning in digital that you think games teams, underappreciate or maybe about how gaming insights are applicable elsewhere in ways that those outside the games industry might not know?

Mike: Yeah. It, it was, it was a really interesting time. I was there for four years and it was really interesting to see how a lot of, a lot of the elements of, of game design and, and live service are relevant in other industries as well, and that's what Nike was specifically interested in. Personally, I was just interested in the brand of being able to take some of the vision that we had and some of the things that we did within gaming into an amazing brand like, like Nike and what we saw was a lot of the, the mechanics that we built to, to drive engagement to, to keep people engaged within a, an, an experience and bring them back and, and reward them was directly transferrable into the world of activity and, and, you know, many of us sometimes struggle to stay active and, and there's nothing better than, than taking some of those cues and bringing them across.

And so, it was really good fun to, to identify the things that that worked and bring them across to help people be active in a, in a healthy and a sustainable way. But it also was great to bring some of the community elements that are critical to game development, game operation and bring them over as well to, to really be able to listen and understand.

And that's, I, we used a lot of that within the innovation space. It's sometimes a little too easy to, to bring technology for technology's sake into, into those types of situations, but it was really good to use the, the actual athlete or the consumers as the, as the barometer there, as the, whether these, these mechanics made sense.

Aaron: Yeah. Just a quick follow up on that. One big trend that people are talking about around gaming right now is just the idea of gamification, right? Of other apps or services. Is that what you're talking about here? Or, or, I'm curious, like maybe could you give like a specific example of like what you guys applied or, or learned?

Mike: Yeah, there was, I, I think, gamification, absolutely leaderboards, rewards those kind of recognition for achievements, but also content. I mean, what, what you and the team do in creating really engaging content. I think one of the other things that we, we brought across was that, and, and something as simple as giving people cues to help them through a journey in the same way as we, when we're playing a game, sometimes we need cues to get through things or to, to optimize or improve. Same for running how it should feel when you are running. If you cannot breathe and you cannot talk, you are over doing it back off.

And so we built guided runs is something really, really simple. Using distance or time-based cues or just checking in with people so all elements really have that, have that ability to transfer across. And it was, it was really fascinating to, to bring those across. I, I wish all industries developed at the same pace as the games industry when it comes to code development and creating, and bringing features to life.

But it was amazing to, to be there and be able to, to bring all of those, some of, well, some of those ideas across.

Aaron: Cool. And your, final career stop before joining the eSports World Cup Foundation, was at Epic Games where you saw, oversaw international publishing between 2021 and 2024, which obviously has been an important time period for Epic in its own history with UEFN, Epic Game Store and publishing itself becoming a bigger deal. And, and so I'm curious, like any memorable takeaways or lessons learned worth sharing from being at Epic during this time? 

Mike: Yeah, look, it was a, it was a fascinating time to be there. Obviously. Part of that was, was the COVID, the COVID period and a, a lot of the COVID boom within the games industry and being there then, and then seeing that chart through, through the correction that we've seen over, over the last 18 months or so.

But there was a couple of things that were real stats forging, and one was specifically within Fortnite, just seeing how different IP could merge and live in, in a, in a persistent place together at the same time. That was for me, was something truly unique in the industry where IP had historically been very siloed.

And so, it was really fascinating to see how that could all interact and working with those IP owners to be able to get into a place of comfort where you're able to have all of those things happening once. So I think that was one of them. And then you, you touched on the other one of, of UEFN and, and user generated content.

And the explosion that we see now, whether it be with Roblox or, or UEFN or other platforms that are there as well. This idea that almost as we created more and more sophisticated tools for people to create games in parallel at this, we've got an opportunity for anyone to create a game and anyone to create an experience.

And that democratization of, of creativity, I think was something that's really fascinating and, and I'm still really interested to see how that goes and to see what is the next huge breakout game that we're all playing.

Aaron: Right. And we, we talk a lot about UGC on this, this podcast as well. And I guess you, you're also involved in the publishing, publishing deals like with Remedy and Allan Wake too, which, is one of my favorite games of recent times.

So, so thank you for, for publishing that one. But let's go ahead.

Mike: Too scary for me.

Aaron: It, it, it does have some scary moments. Those, those jump scares are still seared into my brain, you know, a year or two later. But, anyways, really awesome game, but let's, let's go ahead and zoom to the President. And I, I teased it at the beginning, but can you tell us more about the eSports World Cup Foundation and what you are up to as its COO, and then we'll, we'll dig much deeper into everything going on with eSports and the eSports World Cup.

Mike: Yeah, absolutely. The, the, the foundation that we're all part of here, and, and is a, a nonprofit and, and really part of, of one of the many strategies in, in the kingdom that are really pushing towards the growth of, the growth of gaming, eSports and, and all of the, the elements within that.

For us within the foundation, we are really focused on, on the eSports World Cup. And, and we have a, a few objectives there, really uniting the eSports communities and the gaming communities for the biggest competition in the world. So, really, focus towards creating that eSports World Cup champion.

It's a truly unique event because it's, it's club-based, and so we have a huge number of clubs who are, who are joining that. We had our inaugural event last year, and there was a huge success with that first event. And we're just in the, in the final phases of putting the finishing touches to EWC 2025.

Aaron: Which is in July. It's coming up pretty.

Mike: That's, that's right. July 6th. Yep. Oh, man. Kick-off July 6th.

Aaron: Yeah. Well, that'll be exciting. And so let's get, we'll get back to the, the nitty gritty details of the eSports World Cup in a moment. But, I want to zoom out a little bit first to get your thoughts about the global state of eSports as a, a backdrop of this conversation first.

So, at least in the West, eSports has been going through a challenging reset over the past two or three years. Let's, let's call it many team organizations and leagues raised too much capital and, you know, they've had to deal with the repercussions of that, whether it's restructuring, making some type of big changes, some have even shut down.

And I know you're based out of Riyadh these days, but maybe starting with the West, like where do you see Western based eSports going from here?

Mike: Yeah, look, a great question and I think to answer that I'd probably zoom out a little bit first and, and just look at, honestly, the gaming industry as a whole, and so the, the gaming industry as a whole.

Over the last couple of decades, we've seen a continual upward trend. Yes, there's been a couple of little corrections, but if we ultimately look at it, then we see ultimately an, an upward trend. And we honestly feel the same for eSports. eSports has had some corrections definitely, but we think that there's, there's a significant amount of untapped opportunity when it comes to the growth of eSports, and I think eSports has really satisfied the, the endemic need for competition and, and the passion that is within that audience. For us, we see the biggest opportunity in actually taking the fun of competition.

Some of the incredible stories that exist within the players, the communities, and the clubs, and really evolving that and connecting people. And so for us, when we look out, if we look in the next five plus years, we see definitely growth there in the west, but also worldwide as well. And I think if you look around the world, you start to see some of those, uh, some of those leading indicators which are really demonstrating what I think is gonna be a pathway for the West.

And we've seen this so many times within the gaming industry where it doesn't, those initiatives don't necessarily start in the west. They have often started in the east and then find their way to the west in an, in an evolved state, whether it be the advent of free to play gaming or a whole host of other things that have kind of started in, in different parts of the world.

Aaron: Sure. So I guess we can, we can talk about the global piece a little bit. Because I mean, as you, as you mentioned, and it's totally true, eSports is very much a, a global business and how it works in different parts of the world is, is just different I guess. And, I'm curious, like, as you've ramped up in this industry, like what have you learned about how eSports differs?

As a business or anything else, you know, in other parts of the world like Asia and the Middle East, that maybe can, like pave a new path or, you know, show the West that has struggled, you know, a better or newer way of, of doing things.

Mike: Sure. A look. From an Asia perspective, I, I'd probably point to China and see what we've, what we've seen from a growth within competitive eSports there.

And honestly, everything around it in China has been a, a huge, huge development. And for us as the eSports World Cup, we've seen incredible success from a viewership, from an engagement standpoint, in China as well. I think some of the, some of the things that have particularly surprised me and give me a lot of, of hope and, and anticipation for the future is going and seeing some of the events in China and being part of those events.

I was at a, a Honor of King's event recently and the clubs there are on a different level when it comes to the support that they have. And what was fascinating for me were seeing the, the passion of those fans traveling across the country to see their club compete on, on the big stage. And it was very much like what, what I've seen with, with football and seeing fans follow their football or their soccer team from city to city, to be able to, to experience that. And so that level of fandom is unique also, when I look at the, the diversity of those fans and seeing the, the gender split as well, and seeing in many cases more women following those clubs than men, is also really, really fascinating for me.

So I think. When I look at that and I see the opportunities for the clubs to build out their rosters, which we're obviously, we want to support them. And, and that's one of the pivotal elements of the eSports World Cup is to have multiple rosters, um, to be able to compete and we only see that increasing, which is, which is fantastic.

And then if we talk about the, the Middle East and seeing the growth here in, in Saudi Arabia, the growth of, of eSports and the, and the gaming industry as a whole, that's also really, really interesting. And seeing some of the, the big clubs locally. Whether it be Falcons or Twisted Minds or Power and like the big, the big three clubs that that we have here, we're, we're obviously seeing a lot of investment in other clubs being created as well.

So I think that as we see that growth and as we see the number of people who are not just playing games but also want to compete, it's, it's really fascinating and. Between those two markets. I think the other thing that I've seen that's changed is really the perception of being, being an eSports athlete and seeing the, the recognition and it's, it's a, an okay job to do and actually people are encouraging, if you have the ability to, to take part and play competitively.

Whereas when I was younger, that probably wasn't the case. And, and I love that there's now a recognition that. These players have incredible skill. They're training like athletes in any other sport, and they have an incredible career opportunity, whether it be playing or casting or creating other, other, career paths within the industry.

Aaron: Right. I guess when, when I look at this, I mean there obviously is a lot to, to learn from all sides around the world, but I, I mean just I guess to make like east-west comparison, it definitely does seem like the east, they have like culture advantages and scale advantages that are just hard to, to replicate and so some of it just kind of is what it is.

But I mean, with how your company is positioning itself and even,  much of the Saudi Arabian investments generally. It's interesting to see like a focus on, on one hand consolidation of like, you know, pulling together a better business by bringing events and, and stuff together under one hood. But also when you, you do that, such as with the eSports World Cup, you're like one location for all of the world to come together under one, one roof, one big event. And so I'm curious, I, I guess just connecting this to like why Saudi Arabia is betting so big on eSports, like as I mentioned, like much in the West has suffered, the East has a, like a massive scale from, you know, just like a big population that is interested in, in eSports. Why, why exactly is Saudi Arabia betting so big on eSports? Like, what does it see from its vantage point and like, like what does that opportunity?

Mike: Yeah, there's, there's, there's a couple of pieces there. A couple of stats. 70, close to 70% of the, uh, the population are under 35. And of that population seven, you know, close to 70% of that population identify themselves as gamers. Which is, which is there. So there's a passion, there's an inbuilt passion in the, in the community here that people love games. And I experienced this on a day-to-day basis, when in everything you do in life and people you meet.

People are playing games, and they have played games their entire lives, and now they're playing games with their kids and, and so on. And so it will continue. So this isn't, this isn't an anomaly. This is something that you have an entire country who predominantly identified themselves as gamers. I think coupled with that, you have, from a government standpoint and from a leadership standpoint, there's a recognition that let's, let's connect passion with investment. Let's connect passion with, with opening up an element and, and a large portion of our GP against the games industry because it's always great to do something you love. And so that kind of fostered as part of Vision 2030, the creation of the national gaming and eSports strategy.

That has a whole host of goals, whether it be jobs focused goals of, of 39,000 jobs by 2030 or 50 billion contribution of GDP, but it's within 13 different sectors of which eSports is one of which, the one that, that we're involved with directly. It covers every other sector of the industry as well, whether it be, uh, from a development standpoint, from a support from ultimately running, events as well and content creation.

So it's, it's really an investment across the board. And, and as a result of that, there's organizations such as ourselves who are, who are running, running events, but then you have the likes of EFG who are running events globally. Or Savvy who are investing directly in, in game studios like, like Scopely and, and many others as well.

So it really kind of hooks back to that national strategy and there's, to my knowledge, there's no other countries in the world that have actually put it down and said, yeah, we are gonna focus on this. This is a national strategy and we are gonna invest and resources, resource this in such a way that it can be successful and compete on a global stage.

Aaron: Right. The, the government backing is very unique, especially with the scale that it's, it's operating at. So, I mean, I've been interested in, in following, you know, Saudi Arabia's moves and eSports and broader gaming over the past few years, and I imagine we have many, many more years of, of watching all of these investments unfold and, and continue to evolve, which will be really interesting to see.

One last, bigger picture question for you before we dive more specifically into, your business, which is how do you think the next decade of eSports will look differently from the past decade? Where are we going with all of this?

Mike: So I think we're gonna, if I look, yeah, it's always fun. 10 years out, I look, I, I think that the core DNA of competition people love competing against other people.

This has been. Step since we started walking around this, this planet, whether we're running faster or we're throwing something further, whatever it we would be competition is, it is wired within us. And so competition will continue. I think I, the content that we compete with, there's, I hope that we evolve and we have more genres that we are competing in, and there's new and exciting games that we have to master.

So that would be one, I think that's, that's more of a, a wish rather than necessarily a pathway. The other thing that I think is gonna change within the next 10 years is something that I think. We've been waiting for for a while, and we've kind of, we've hoped it was gonna happen and it hasn't necessarily happened on its own organically, and that's really the, the move of competitive eSports into a more mainstream audience.

I, I know I've, I've tried this in the past and it hasn't been successful, but I think that we've learned now and we've seen, and we, we've seen other sports who have been able to open the aperture. They've been able to look at the cues from, honestly, from the gaming industry and from entertainment and from other sports, and be able to build that path to a much more mainstream audience.

So for me, I. That is probably gonna be the, the biggest delta. And, and that's something that we are absolutely committed to and really investing in and, and experimenting because, you know, not everything will be, will be perfect and work first time, but we feel that that is critical for the, the success and the growth for us over the course of the next 10 years.

And then. To reinforce that you've got the likes of not just what we can create within the event that we're doing at the moment and what the publishers are looking to do and what we do within entertainment. But is the other institutions like the IOC are now recognizing that competitive gaming is something that they want to be involved with too.

So the idea of the Olympic eSport games is, is something that obviously we're working very closely with them on as, as well.

Aaron: Gotcha. Maybe, maybe you could talk about that a moment. I, I actually don't know much about the Olympic eSports games. What is the, the latest on that, or how is that working? What, what should we expect from the Olympic eSports games?

Mike: So we are working on that in the process or we're in the process of working on that with the IOC at the moment. And really it's, it's a pathway to, to really open the aperture of, of eSports is exactly what I was, what I was saying. And the idea there is that we take some amazing games that people are playing and we are able to bring that, that sense of competition in a slightly different way.

So obviously it won't be club-based like the other eSports tournaments that we, we generally operate, it's gonna be nation based. And so we think that there's a, an incredible opportunity for nation based gameplay, again, to open the aperture. If you think about the Olympics and, and when you're watching the Olympics, I, I dunno about you, but to certain sports that I will sit and watch during the Olympics, purely because there is somebody British competing in that. And I don't understand necessarily everything about that particular sport, but I will cheer that person on. And so we see that as being another avenue for us to bring nation based eSports into the ecosystem where.

It, whilst it's existed, it hasn't necessarily broken through and the tier one athletes haven't necessarily been competing in, in those environments. So we're working on it with the IOC at the moment. We're incredibly excited to continue that, that partnership with them and, and we as a, as a founding partner in, in that os is something that obviously we're, we're very committed to.

Aaron: Yeah, that's really interesting. But, okay, let's go ahead and, and dig more into the, the details of the, the eSports World Cup. First of all, can you maybe just break down in more detail what all happens at the eSports World Cup, which as, as we mentioned earlier, begins in a month or so? Like what makes it such a, a notable spectacle compared to any other eSports events out there?

Mike: I think, I think though there's a few things. So for us, bringing the best games is, is critical. And you, you mentioned this earlier, the idea that we bring multiple titles from the biggest publishers in the world and put them under one roof. I. Last year, the, the team operated over eight weeks, with, with 21 different games, 22 tournaments that we operated.

This year we'll be doing 24 games with 25 tournaments over seven weeks because we don't like to make it easy for ourselves. We want to, to compress it a little bit, but that, that first one to bring in the best games. That, that people are playing from around the world. And so we have great representation of games that are huge in the west, some that are huge in the east, some that have just got global appeal as well. So we can really bring all of those, incredible IPs together. The second is, is the fact that it's quickly.

Aaron: Sure. Can you name some of those big games just to get, so people have some context? Like what are the big ones?

Mike: Absolutely. So League of Legends, Valorant, EAFC, will be bringing Crossfire this year, which is a new title. Yeah. We'll also bringing chess this year, which is a, which is a new title. But we have a whole host of what would be. Consider traditional eSports games like StarCraft and Dota, but then also bringing new games that we feel are an opportunity for us to open the aperture.

And then when we look at Asia and we see games like Honor of Kings and MLBB being huge, having huge resonance in China and Southeast Asia as well. So really we want to have everything from, to, to MOs. We've got sports games, we've got strategy. So we feel like we've got a really good mix. Yeah. And then in addition to that kind of club competition, so we've got those huge games we've invited and we'll have over 200 clubs competing as, as part of the, the tournament.

And the concept's really interesting because. Each club can have multiple rosters and compete in as many different, games as they want if they, if they qualify. And ultimately whoever is able to amass the most points from all of those different tournaments that they, they compete in will ultimately be crowned.

The eSports will cut champion. And so that's the pathway. So huge games. The best players. We have an incredible prize pool that we'll be bringing. Last year it was just over 60 million USD. This year it'll be over 70 million that will be provided to, to players, to clubs, all the way across that, that ecosystem really with the objective of supporting the growth and the stability of, of the, the, the gaming ecosystem in the, in the community.

Aaron: First of all, I think it's cool that you're working with so many different games, like, like pulling games together across publishers, across leagues, you know, all in one spot. Like that strikes me as, you know, a big deal. And then second, just a follow up to this, could you maybe share, like I, I assume, you know, you're pulling all of these people together, bringing them to Saudi Arabia to compete.

Like, like what is the event on the ground look and feel like. Maybe you can even just share some details about last year's event. Like for, for those going or those interested. Yeah. What is, what is that like?

Mike: There's a lot of logistics. So we had, we had over 1500 players from a hundred countries last year.

So there's a, there's a lot of logistics on the backend, but once. Look, we try to make it as seamless for people to get here, whether they be a fan or whether they be an athlete. So we're trying to create pathways. And for us on ground participation is something critical. So, we, we obviously care massively about the viewership and we want to be able to broadcast and share this worldwide.

And we had over 500, 500 million people watch the eSports World Cup last year and 250 million hours watched across all of our, all of our platforms and, and distribution streets. But the other element is, is people being here and we had over two and a half million people cycle through all of our venues over the course of the eight weeks last year.

And it's a combination of a couple of major things. One is the eSports World Cup, the competitive eSports across all of those different games. And the second is, is the festival. So we have a huge festival which is running in parallel with the competitive elements, the club championship where people can celebrate gaming.

Everything that is gaming, whether it be actually taking part in a community tournament or play tests or seeing their favorite IPs and understanding and learning more. There's a whole host of different elements that we have there a lot of experiential gaming opportunities that people love playing, but we wanna level up the play. And so, because we have that amazing platform for multiple weeks, we're able to really create some compelling, really, really fun activities for people to come as a family and, and really engage with it. And so that's. The focus for us is building that festival in parallel with the Club championship.

And this year we're really focused on creating, weekly themes around the IP that will be happening in any given week. There may be a sports focus or a mobile focus, but the idea to create multiple opportunities for people. Whether they be in the region or, or locally or traveling internationally to come for multiple opportunities to, to see experience and engage with, a whole host of these, these different opportunities.

Aaron: Yeah. Wow. I mean, that sounds exciting. Hopefully I can check it out one day myself.

Mike: You're welcome. You're welcome.

Aaron: I mean, I mean, it, it sounds really fun, But also I can't imagine, just putting my, my business hat on, I can't imagine how much organization goes into making a big event like this happened every year.

And as C-O-O-I-I bet you're involved in countless logistical details here. So I think what could be interesting is just for you to peel back the curtain a bit and, and share some of what goes into making this event happen operationally. Like what are some of the, the crazy things that it takes to, to bring this all to life.

Mike: Yeah, well, we touched a little bit on logistics and there's, there's a, there's a couple here. One, we are incredibly lucky that we have incredible support from basically the rest of the kingdom. Our, our partners, government stakeholders, everybody kind of pulls together. So I'll be honest, it's, it's a real team effort and.

That makes it a whole lot easier because it, it takes what may be red tape in other parts of the world away and, and really everybody is, is, has a concerted effort against the goal, which is making this as big and as fun and as engaging and as seamless and easy for people to enjoy as possible. So that's the, that's the good bit.

That's the, that's the, like, we're all in this together fun bit. The, the challenging bit is just the sheer scale. And, and the duration. And it's, it's a, it's a log event. When you look at other multi-sport, multi-week events, they don't last seven or eight weeks. The Olympics does not last that long. So for us to be able to build, build that capability and build the flexibility for us to be able to cycle things in and out. Whether it be the games that are being played, or those festival activations that are tied to a specific thing. We need to be really agile and we need to be really nimble in the way that we think about these things, and we create that.

And then the last piece for me is honestly, is the jigsaw puzzle of pulling it all together. We wouldn't be here if it weren't for the publishers. We wouldn't be able to do this if it weren't for the amazing games, the amazing clubs that come here and, and compete. And so basically playing that jigsaw puzzle of being able to make sure that what we do is additive to the ecosystem is critical.

So I, every game that is taking part in the eSports World Cup already has their own calendar. They already have their, their own competitive calendar. And we have to find a way to fit ourselves in where this doesn't impact, doesn't detract from what they're doing, but is always added to. So I spend a lot of my time on all three of those pieces on, on navigating and, and making the connections on, on being able to support the logistics of, of getting all of these things to fit together.

But ultimately making sure that we, we keep an eye on. Really on the fans, the clubs and the publishers, and just making sure that what we're doing and have that constant check and balance. Like, is this, is this helping? Is this a good thing? Is this making it better? Whether it be from a fan experience or from a publisher to open up a new market or open up a new audience for them.

So, yeah, it, I'll be honest, keeps me outta mischief, keeps me busy. But it's, it's, it's, it's amazing and I've, I've loved every minute of it and I think it's a, it's a unique moment and a unique opportunity. So yeah, it is, has its challenges, but I very much love it.

Aaron: Well, that's awesome. And are you guys in partnership or interface with, ESL Face it at all, which is obviously part of, of Savvy. I'm just curious like how that might connect for you guys since you're both backed by, by Saudi Arabia.

Mike: Yeah, EFG are one of our, one of our key partners, one of the partners that helped bring it to life. The scale of the operation and the scale of the tournament is, is so huge that we, we can't just have one partner.

So we have many partners and, and EFG are one of our integral partner partners. They helped us last year with the inaugural EWC, and they're, they're helping us again this year. And so, yeah, we start, we start planning. I'll be honest, we've already started fighting 2026, I bet. So we have to keep one eye, one eye, one eye here and, and definitely we're already starting to, to look one eye, one eye in the future.

Aaron: Yeah. And I saw you guys, or at least confirmed through 2027, I think I read on, on the website somewhere. But that's awesome. And, and obviously just to hit on Saudi Arabia, maybe one last time here the country’s made big financial bets across, you know, many sports at this point. And, you know, from my perspective, it sort of seems like your $70 million prize pool echoes similar aspirations.

I, I'm, I'm curious, is there any truth to that observation? Like, is the eSports World Cup aiming to grow the eSports market? Capture market share in a similar way that these other Saudi backed sports leagues have attempted to, or am I just making incorrect assumptions there?

Mike: Yeah. Look, this isn't a market share play. This is not something that, that, that, that is the focus, the focus for us as, as the foundation, as a nonprofit is really in support of the ecosystem. And so for us, we see ourselves very much as a, as a catalyst for growth and for sustainability across the whole ecosystem. And this is supported, and that's why that pool is not.

It's not exclusively player focused or club focused. It's, it's supporting the, supporting the full ecosystem. And then we're building that in partnership with the publishers. So that's where almost a little bit what I was getting at before, of just making sure that what we do is additive and what we do is, is being able to, to support and help the, the growth.

And I guess a another example of that is, is the club program, because we know that. You mentioned this earlier that we've seen, we've seen a lot of investment in clubs, we saw corrections. Some people have struggled and, and we see that, and we see that the best way for clubs to be sustainable long term is by having diversity in the IPs that they're supporting, that they're games go up and down.

Teams are successful and sometimes they're not. So being able to have more rosters across more games helps build that long-term sustainability for them and for us, the club program we support this year, we're supporting 40 clubs through that club program where we invest in those clubs directly to help them.

Build rosters to help them really build that solid foundation that is a sustainable foundation that they can grow from, rather than being a huge investment. They, they build out and then they've, they've got a burn rate, which is, is just not sustainable. And so for us, we see this as much more, than a market share play.

This is an ecosystem play and we are passionate. Pretty much all of my career in gaming. We love games and we love building out the capability so more people can not just enjoy them and play them, but make a career in engaging within the industry.

Aaron: Right. Could you tell me a bit more about the nonprofit elements of this? As you mentioned, the foundation reinvest the proceeds from the event back into the, the sector, advocating for the eSports industry. Can you tell me more about what that means? Like why is this structured as a nonprofit and can you tell me more about what you are reinvesting into and, and you mentioned like how some of the price pool goes beyond.

Like the players and, and teams, like where else does it go? Just, just talking about this in a bit more detail would be really interesting.

Mike: Yeah, for sure. And look as, as a foundation, our goals are not financial. Our, our, honestly, our, our KPIs are, are building the ecosystem, building viewership, building, building the, the number of visitors that, that we have coming into the, the kingdom here. And so we really are building towards a, a self-sustaining model. And so we obviously have support from the government to help us build, but we also work with a whole host of commercial partners through sponsorship and through other mechanics that we've seen within the industry as well.

And so when we're focused as, as that, there's a couple of things. So, one, yes, profit is not a priority, but it also positions us that we're not, we're not actively trying to make a profit, and therefore the partnership with the publishers is, is a, a collaborative one as well. That, that they're not necessarily thinking that, okay, this is, this is a, this is a margin play because it's, it's absolutely not.

It's about building that foundation and from our, you know, whether it be the IP agnostic nature of, of what we're creating it. It's just not about profit. And so the prize pool, yeah, it's, it's one part of it, , that we're, we're investing into the, the success of the tournament all the way through the qualification to the, the clubs themselves, to the individual players, to bounties and other things that we can really see that to, to sustain that operation.

I mentioned the, the club program as well that is, is unique from that perspective as well, and that's something that we will, we, we started last year. We'll continue to invest in that. We've scaled it up, this year as, as well. And as I say, we have 40 clubs that are up from 30 last year and we've got up to a million dollars of funding coming to, to those clubs during the course of, of this cycle.

Yeah. Really we're, we, we look at it along that way. We have obviously, as I say, really great support from the government as well, who are, who are invested. And as part of that national gaming and eSports strategy, we see investment coming from there as well.

Aaron: Cool, And I guess one, one final question on this before we begin to wrap up, tell me about the future. Like what, what do you envision for the future of the eSports World Cup? Like what does long-term success look like? What does improvement look like? You, you just talked about some of the goals and aspirations and maybe some of the, the metrics that matter, but maybe you can unpack. What you aspire for in the future a bit more.

Mike: Yeah, it's, it, it's easy to say. It's about, it's about being bigger or better, but it, it, look, it's a more, a lot more than just scale for us. We want to be much, much more efficient in the way that we're actually operating, and we're able to be a lot smarter in the way that we do things.

So we, we make sure that they're as impactful and meaningful as they can, they can possibly be. But there's, there's a couple of different areas when I look at improvement. And the first one is, is really probably around structure and, and access in the way that we're, we really want to be able to, to bring more people into the event.

And we're doing that through the, the creation of pathways through different qualification pathways around the world to be able to have more clubs. Players from diverse backgrounds being part of that, and building connection with the, the creator community as well, so we can have more people come and, and experience the event firsthand for themselves as.

The festival we, we launched with a festival last year. We are doubling down with that this year. Bringing a lot more structure to that as well. I mentioned the themes based on a, on a weekly basis of being able to switch and evolve those themes over the course of the seven weeks of competition. But really for us, we see that as a massive opportunity for us to really create a celebration of gaming.

We've been to, I'm sure you and I have been to so many game shows around the world and have experienced different things in different parts of the world, and. We're trying to bring as many of those different elements into, into one place so people can really celebrate that convergence of entertainment we've got, whether it be through music or gaming, pop culture, everything that we've got coming there as well.

So that one is really an opportunity for us to open the aperture and, and really have a, a family friendly event that everybody can, could come to. And the last piece is, is really around more connectivity and, and really. Connecting people in the way that makes sense for them. And so when we are building the experiences, we've, we obviously have a core eSports audience and we know how they consume eSports and, and what they want to do.

But we really want to open the you on that. We really want to create much more of a mainstream experience that we can have people enjoy. Competitive eSports and the tournaments that haven't necessarily engaged with that. And so a lot of that is gonna be on the broadcast products that we create, the way that we position it, the way that we package it, and to create those, those moments, like the incredible opening and, and closing ceremonies to be able to bring people to an event and, and have them experience it in a way that they've never experienced it before.

Aaron: Awesome. Well, I really look forward to seeing where you all take this. And as I mentioned earlier, I hope I can check it out in person sooner than later. But I have three quick final questions for you before we wrap. First one being just what are you personally most looking forward to? Like, do you have a favorite event that, that you're looking forward to, to attending or bringing to life this year?

Mike: I, I look, I, I love Battle Royal out, so, I'm gonna be particularly excited to see, um, see some of those, those games and the scale of those as well. But look, I am, I was lucky enough to be part of some of the eSports World Cup last year. And honestly, just seeing. Seeing the passion, I'm most excited about seeing people smiling faces and people running to get in and to see and, and really soak up that, that.

That excitement. And so, yeah, that's, that's for me, it makes it all worthwhile for the team when they see that and makes all of the late nights and the hard work and the, um, the missed weekends worth it when you just see the, the passion and, and see the, the celebrations and see how much it means to people as well when they, when they win these tournaments.

And here's some of the personal stories and we just, we just announced yesterday a documentary that we're, we're releasing on Prime Video. And so we're starting to try to find more ways that we could share some of those incredibly personal stories for people so that more of us can connect and really understand how much of a difference or how, how tough it is sometimes, but also how much of a difference some of these opportunities make.

Aaron: Amazing. And then, I mean, obviously we talked all about eSports today. You're completely dialed in on, on eSports day today, but what else in the, the games industry are you excited about these days? Like when you look around, what, what piques your interest?

Mike: I, I love playing new games and I love, I love seeing where the creativity is going. So I think what excites me about the game industry at the moment is seeing some of the great content that's, that's, that's coming out in, in the months ahead and I think. That for me is, is the most exciting thing. And seeing how we're seeing this evolution and seeing the evolution of gameplay. I really hope that we continue to see new IPs.

I really hope that we continue to see new gameplay mechanics coming as well. And I really, I really hope that, you know, as we've seen the, the advent of UGC as we start to see some really material, highly engaging games within that UGC world actually break through and, and start to, to jump out.

And so, there's, look, there's a lot to be excited about. There's, there's more people playing every year with, this is a, this is a one of the few trends in the world where it's, it's going upwards to the right, consistently because. Every day there's more people playing games. And that will continue to be the case because we know that the new generation who are, who are joining us and are gonna be coming up like games are, are, are integral to their entertainment and their social life.

So, yeah, I, there's, there's a lot, there's a lot to be excited about. And it's gonna be great to, to be part of that journey.

Aaron: Totally. And I think some of these UGC games popping off is, is already happening. We, I think like as we're speaking right now, there's like a, a gardening game on, on Roblox that's been like hitting, I wanna say like eight to 9 million CCUs.

Like it's, it's just absurd what some of these games that, you know, a lot of people haven't even ever heard of or will never hear of are, are doing. And that's, you know, it's still early days in so many ways. But, final question for you. If anyone would like to reach out to yourself or your organization, and we have a bunch of listeners that are leaders of their own companies all across the games industry, where should they go? How should they best reach out?

Mike: LinkedIn's probably the easiest. Either feel free to reach out to me personally, or, or definitely the, the foundations page on LinkedIn. They're probably the easiest way to connect with, with me or part of the broader organization.

Aaron: Awesome. Well, let's go ahead and wrap up here. Mike, it's been a real pleasure chatting with you today and learning all about your world of eSports and best of luck with the big event, and I guess a couple months from now.

Mike: Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. It's gonna be a, it's gonna be a busy few weeks for us. We, yeah, we launch on July 6th and, yeah, it's gonna be an amazing seven weeks of everything.

Aaron: Yeah. Can't wait. And to all of our listeners, thank you as always for tuning in. It's a pleasure having these conversations for you, and we'll catch you all in the next episode.

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